Roads in Anuire

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----

From: "Osprey" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 1:45 PM





> So the BA-Sielwode road is secret, but not necessarilly

> underground. It might be underground through Baruk-Azhik, [...]



I rather think the road is largely a route through natural caves, sometimes

crossing overland from cave to cave, sometimes linking caves by mined

tunnels, and then, as you say, "winding paths through a sentient forest."



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[Osprey]

There`s also some text about how the dwarves are loathe to mar their
mountains with roads, preferring to use waterways and that their trading
partners come to dwarven lands rather than they travel outside their
kingdom. Presumably the traders are not let very far into B-A, and handle
cartage of goods along the (underground) roads within the borders of B-A
themselves. These goods could then be handed of to their human partners in
small, underground "towns" on the borders of the provinces.

This might be true for dwarves in general, but I&#39;m not so certain it aptly describes Diirk Watershold and his royal guild. He has extensive holdings in Coeranys and Osoerde, and his description suggests he is a fairly active guilder (agents wherever his guilds are, for example). Either he extensively employs humans in his foreign guilds (which must be true to a certain extent - dwarves aren&#39;t exactly the most undetectable spies in a human province), and/or there are dwarven guildsmen in the outlying guilds.

But since the Coeranys and Osoerde routes connect to Diirk&#39;s guilds, I suspect he runs those two routes at least, as well as to the borders of the Sielwode. I imagine some secret trading post where the underground road from BA emerges above the surface.

And ultimately, Diirk doesn&#39;t strike me as the typical insular dwarf...he&#39;s too savvy with foreign relations.

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----

From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>

Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 2:42 PM





> The road actually is supposed to be entirely underground.



This would be a logical assumption for someone who has never seen the road,

is aware it exists, has heard that it uses tunnels, and knows that dwarves

are miners. Which makes it a supposition, not neccesarily a true statement.



> There`s also some text about how the dwarves are loathe to mar their

> mountains with roads, preferring to use waterways



This presumes that we back off the construction emphasis of dwarves, which I

am not inclined to do. Master artisans generally don`t have a hostility to

the artifcial. Like most such builder folk, I imagine they think their

construction of tunnels, walls, columns, and indeed roads, actually improve

the mountains.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[destowe]

With Points East Trading Guild out of Elinie having some holdings in B-A, I would think they would be willing to maintain the road in Elinie.

It would be logical that there is a trade route between B-A and Elinie, so there needs to be some sort of route.

[geeman]

At 04:44 PM 10/1/2003 -0500, Kenneth Gauck wrote:



> > The road actually is supposed to be entirely underground.

>

>This would be a logical assumption for someone who has never seen the road,

>is aware it exists, has heard that it uses tunnels, and knows that dwarves

>are miners. Which makes it a supposition, not neccesarily a true statement.



The quote regarding the underground nature of the road from B-A to the

Sielwode comes from what reads like expository text rather than colour text

in the assets and holdings section of PSoB-A. Unlike other BR texts like

the Atlas of Cerilia, the colourful parts of that particular PS book are

pretty clearly delineated--even labelled with headings--from the expository

ones, so I don`t think that bit of text was meant to convey a mistaken

in-character narrative or ironical bias.



> > There`s also some text about how the dwarves are loathe to mar their

> > mountains with roads, preferring to use waterways

>

>This presumes that we back off the construction emphasis of dwarves, which I

>am not inclined to do. Master artisans generally don`t have a hostility to

>the artifcial. Like most such builder folk, I imagine they think their

>construction of tunnels, walls, columns, and indeed roads, actually improve

>the mountains.



We don`t have to back off their construction emphasis if we also recognize

its purpose and the broader efforts and themes of Cerilian

dwarves. Tunnels, walls and columns improve the mountains interior--and

dwarves would probably take the same satisfaction in them that human

craftsmen would--but roads would mar the mountains exterior, which is what

the dwarves are described as trying to avoid. In addition to the material

in the PSoB-A text, the Ruins of Empire entry on Baruk-Azhik: "The dwarves

have done little to mar the outer surface of the mountains--instead they

concentrate on building fortresses within."



The question, however, is why should that be an emphasis of dwarves? It

needs to be pointed out that Cerilian dwarves are not adverse to

interacting with other races, they just don`t want them in their

homes. Dwarves are described as being perfectly happy to travel abroad

trading goods or working as mercenaries. They just don`t want others

traipsing about their own domain, mingling with their communities, learning

their secrets or vulnerabilities, and they`re willing to do things like try

to keep the exterior of their mountains as pristine (and inhospitable) as

possible in order prevent others from visiting. Hence, dwarves want to

handle their trade with outsiders outside their domain as much as possible,

and thus their emphasis on underground life and travel.



Avoiding changes to the exterior of their mountainous demesne is a specific

emphasis of the Cerilian dwarven outlook, not only for reasons involving

their stewardship of the mountains--which may or may not actually even be a

major aspect of their thinking--but due to their generally insular

nature. Roads not only mar the mountainside, but most of them lead to a

door, which opens up to a cave, which leads to a city, and that invites

visitors. Where dwarves in other settings might not have a problem with

castles and other above ground construction, the dwarves in those settings

are described as being more interested in interaction with other races on

their own ground--or are, at least, not as carefully described in this

regard as Cerilian dwarves are.



So the big picture here is that when it comes to a construction emphasis

there`s a LOT more work that has to go on for people to live

underground--particularly if there`s going to be a system of underground

roads over several thousand square miles of land--while keeping the surface

area unmarked. It actually gives dwarves a much more serious construction

emphasis than any other race of Cerilia, or any other race in D&D that I

can think of... even ones based on entirely subterranean species like the

drow or kuo-toa. Those races are not as concerned with surface indications

of their underground realms, and that would require much less effort,

attention to detail and skill to conceal on their part.



Gary

[ConjurerDragon]

Bjørn Eian Sørgjerd schrieb:



>Secert underground road? You`re kidding right? Just as the author of

>Greatheart was kidding about the underground paths in Markazor?

>

>

Why kidding? Moria from Lord of the Rings through which Mithrandir leads

the companions, or the Hall of Kings through which Allanon leads his

would be fine examples for extensive underground complexes through which

the dwarves could travel.



And as a goblin of Markazor I would rather tunnel my way secretly into

any of the neighbouring forests instead of moving adjacent to their

border on the ground where the elves certainly make a pincushion out of

anything that closes within range of a longbow ;-)

bye

Michael

[Osprey]

The question, however, is why should that be an emphasis of dwarves? It
needs to be pointed out that Cerilian dwarves are not adverse to
interacting with other races, they just don`t want them in their
homes. Dwarves are described as being perfectly happy to travel abroad
trading goods or working as mercenaries. They just don`t want others
traipsing about their own domain, mingling with their communities, learning
their secrets or vulnerabilities, and they`re willing to do things like try
to keep the exterior of their mountains as pristine (and inhospitable) as
possible in order prevent others from visiting. Hence, dwarves want to
handle their trade with outsiders outside their domain as much as possible,
and thus their emphasis on underground life and travel.

I would tend to agree with this - it&#39;s more congruent with my general impressions of B-A trade (see my last post).

I imagine the dwarves keeping trading posts on their borders to make this possible.

However, how do we explain all the foreign guilds within the heart of Baruk-Azhik? Those are human-run guilds (like Points East). Do they work only through proxy, or are certain humans allowed within but sworn to secrecy after gaining the trust of the dwarves?

I&#39;ve always been in favor of Diirk working to change this and gain a monopoly in B-A, but I can&#39;t change what&#39;s laid out in RoE.

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----

From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>

Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 5:56 AM





> The quote regarding the underground nature of the road from B-A to the

> Sielwode comes from what reads like expository text rather than colour

text



Its all color text because the players have read it and I`m gonna change

half of it. I`m willing to save the appearances of the PS by explainaing

why its wrong. Either way, no statement in the PS is reliable. So either

the PS is full of errors or its full of fallible observations. Because I

provide a theory for interpreting the PS, players still have a way to

interpret the PS even though they know not to expect literal truth.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[geeman]

At 11:53 AM 10/2/2003 -0500, Kenneth Gauck wrote:



> > The quote regarding the underground nature of the road from B-A to the

> > Sielwode comes from what reads like expository text rather than colour text

>

>Its all color text because the players have read it and I`m gonna change

>half of it. I`m willing to save the appearances of the PS by explainaing

>why its wrong. Either way, no statement in the PS is reliable. So either

>the PS is full of errors or its full of fallible observations. Because I

>provide a theory for interpreting the PS, players still have a way to

>interpret the PS even though they know not to expect literal truth.



Of course it`s always that case that you have control over what is colour

text for the purpose of your sessions, and can tell players that none of

the material in the PS texts (or any of the texts, really) is literally

true in any way--that it`s all colour text. The point here, however, is

not how you decide to use the original materials in your homebrew. It`s

whether the writers meant some a particular bit of text to be somehow

inaccurate because its based on a character`s perspective or some campaign

theme, as is done fairly regularly in the original BR materials. For most

of the BR colour commentary there are a simple, obvious cues that it is

in-character or otherwise hazy in regards to truth value.



In this particular case, it`s pretty clearly meant as literal text, so for

the sake of this discussion--what roads exist in Anuire--it is very strong

evidence that the roads in B-A really are meant to be underground. Of

course, one can discard that in a homebrew, or describe it as commentary

rather than factual if one had some reason for doing so. In the absence of

some extended campaign theme, however, I don`t think it`s very strong as

colour commentary since it doesn`t really seem to convey much colour for

dwarves to all _think_ their roads are underground when they`re not

really. There are more significant themes of dwarven character that

support it being factual (as outlined in the previous post.) It would also

be a rather strange thing to spring on a player whose PC lived or even

ruled B-A for him to somehow not know that roads actually were aboveground

despite that bit of text, so even defining it as colour commentary isn`t

very useful since it would fall in either in the "Common Dwarven Knowledge"

or "Fairly Quickly Noticeable" columns. It would work better as colour

commentary for human (or other non-dwarf) adventurers travelling through

B-A to think all dwarven roads were underground if one really wanted to

emphasize the alien nature of Cerilian dwarves. Again, I think there are

campaign themes and aspects of Cerilian dwarves that make it stronger as

literal truth rather than colour.



One could even extend the thinking regarding dwarves not wanting to show

the locations of their cities by having them build roads that looked like

natural, unworked stone. That doesn`t really address their concerns

regarding an invading army and the fortification of their realm, but it

does follow along with both their construction and craftsmanship efforts

while still meshing with their desire for secrecy.



Personally, I don`t think it`s very reasonable that dwarven roads would be

entirely, absolutely, 100% underground. It makes sense that there might be

the occasional stretch above ground--but probably still not particularly

accessible to non-dwarves. That is, the above ground portions of dwarven

roads might be analogous to above ground bridges or fjords--places where an

underground passage would be less practical than a short walk in the open

air. Where a road runs into a canyon, for instance, it might be sensible

to have a short crossing throught that canyon rather than dig a tunnel in a

loop around it. If we compare to a modern, human highway through a rocky

terrain, in some places its more sensible to tunnel rather than to build a

road around the curvature of the earth. Likewise, an underground dwarven

road probably would run into the occasional area where a short stretch

might go above ground for similar reasons.



A smidge of above ground travel here and there is a little different,

however, from saying that the statement that their roads are underground is

somehow colour text. Rather it would strike me as being more like the

exception that proved the rule.



Gary

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----

From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>

Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 1:36 PM





> The point here, however, is not how you decide to use the original

> materials in your homebrew.



No, the point is when developing new ideas derived from the original

materials what weight should be given to the fact that something was

printed. My argument is that little weight should be given to it. Its

evidence, it might point to a direction, but its not the last word.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com