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  1. #1
    The Atlas of Cerilia, page 17, lists 11 of the 12 original duchies as Boeurine, Mhoried, Diemed, Avanil, Alamie, Aerenwe, Elinie, Talinie, Taeghas, Osoerde, and Cariele. It also mentions the lands now known as Ghoere. According to the BR novels Ghoere was formed from two duchies known as Ghieste and Dhalaene. This puts us up to 13 duchies.

    Not sure how Brosengae fits into this formula. Ruins of Empire refers to it as a duchy as well. That would make 14 duchies.

    Also not sure how Talinie qualified as an original duchy. Apparently it was an Imperial outpost initially and nothing more until after Michael Roele's death.

    So, what are the twelve original duchies of Anuire? If you're really brave how do the princes, mentioned on page 7 of Ruins of Empire, figure into the picture?

    Cheers,

    Steve
    Crossfell

  2. #2
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    Not that I'm an authority, but I'd consider Talinie a typo from your original list, and Brosengae a self-styled Duchey.

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    Birthright Developer Raesene Andu's Avatar
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    I concur with Osprey, Talinie is definitely a typo. The others you list are correct though. Avanil, Boeruine, Mhoried, Diemed, Alamie, Osoerde, Aerenwe, Taeghas,
    Elinie, Cariele, Ghieste, and Dhalaene are the original 12 duchies descended from the 12 houses of the Andu.

    As for Brosengae, I would guess it inherited the title from Taeghas (as Taeghas is now ruled by a count) and that it broke away from Taeghas sometime in the past, most likely due to a civil war or other conflict.

    As for the princes mentioned in Ruins of Empire, they would have been members of the imperial family (i.e. those directly in line to claim the throne). I assume it was the role of the princes of Anuire to rule over regions of the empire for their father (or mother). Much as Great Britain has the Prince of Wales, Anuire may have had a Prince of Brechtur or something like that.

    Most likely Avan's title of prince comes from marriage to a member of the Imperial family somewhere in the past, perhaps a second or third son who never gain the throne.
    Let me claim your Birthright!!

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    Site Moderator Fearless_Leader's Avatar
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    In my games I usually have the Avan's being a distant cadet branch of House Roele and the Princes of Avanil basing their claim to the Iron Throne off of that (actually being a part of the Roele house and being senior to all the other houses... this of course is disputed by the Prince's opponents, like Boeruine, who claim that more recent marriages into House Roele should take precedent).

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    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    Given that Avan has a Great Bloodline (w/ Great Heritage in BRCS terms), might the Avan line be closer to the Roele line than a "distant cadet branch?" If not, why do the Avans have such a distinguished, powerful line? Has anyone ever heard or come up with a good background story on the Avan bloodline that explains its heritage and power?

    -Osprey

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    Site Moderator Fearless_Leader's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Osprey@Sep 29 2003, 03:55 PM
    Has anyone ever heard or come up with a good background story on the Avan bloodline that explains its heritage and power?*
    Well since you asked, here's what I've been using lately:

    "Raesene, Haelyn, and Roele were born to the Anwe, First House of the Andu. The Anwe settled in modern day Avanil, becoming the strongest and most populous of the Andu tribes. When Roele began founding the Empire, it came to be known as the Empire of the Anwe, especially when Roele expanded the old tribal seat of Caer Anwehyr (Fortress of the Anwe) and named it the Imperial Capital in 12 HC. In time, of course, both city and empire would come be known as Anuire.
    The Avans trace their descent back to Prince Avanlyr "the Dragon" Roele, first son of Daulton Roele, who was the second son of Roele himself. Avanlyr was a charismatic leader and general who led the Anuirean armies stationed along the southern boundries of Vosgaard and noted for the dragon bloodmark upon his face and neck, notable for that fact that the Roeles had no bloodmark. After brilliantly defeating a Vos army that had assembled to invade the Anuirean possessions in Khinasi, adding new lands to the Anuirean Empire in eastern Khinasi, and fostering the spread of Haelyn's and Cuiraecen's faiths, the Emperor saw fit to reward Avanlyr. The Emperor, Boeric Roele, increasingly pressed by the governance of the Empire as a whole, had little time to rule the lands of the Anwe. As such, Boeric decided to reward Avanlyr for his service with the rulership of the Anwe lands. Of course, the Anwe lands eventually came to be known as Avanil, while their rulers, descended from Avanlyr, came to be known as the Avans. It is on this basis that the Avans claim the title of Prince and claim to be the proper heirs of the Roele dynasty. Popular stories say that the bloodmark is a manifestation of a piece of Avanlyr's spirit, present in all Avans and passed down through the generations."

    As for Avan having a Great bloodline.... I see the other houses as once having possessed great bloodlines as well, as their progenitors were, after all, present at Deismaar. However, years of intermarriage and/ or misrule have reduced these bloodlines. The Avans are clearly better at preserving their line and have managed to raise their lines through direct rulership. One thing I think a lot of people forget is that you can affect your bloodline through rulership (by expending RP, naming state temples, accepting vassals and so on).

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    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    As for Avan having a Great bloodline.... I see the other houses as once having possessed great bloodlines as well, as their progenitors were, after all, present at Deismaar. However, years of intermarriage and/ or misrule have reduced these bloodlines. The Avans are clearly better at preserving their line and have managed to raise their lines through direct rulership. One thing I think a lot of people forget is that you can affect your bloodline through rulership (by expending RP, naming state temples, accepting vassals and so on).
    I've thought of that possibility, too - though I limited the landed Great Bloodlines to the original 12 Duchies.

    You can raise your bloodline strength, but how can rulership raise your bloodline strenght (from Major to Great, for instance)? Also, what do you mean when referring to state temples?

    The BRCS says you can only raise your bloodline with RP twice in one year. Is that an original rule or a later one?

    -Osprey

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    Site Moderator Fearless_Leader's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Osprey@Sep 29 2003, 05:37 PM
    You can raise your bloodline strength, but how can rulership raise your bloodline strenght (from Major to Great, for instance)?* Also, what do you mean when referring to state temples?*

    The BRCS says you can only raise your bloodline with RP twice in one year.* Is that an original rule or a later one?
    Essentially, spending your RP on raising your bloodline is rulership effecting your bloodline. You've collected enough holdings to generate enough RP, so you can raise your bloodline. This is a pretty fundamental concept that gets lost most of the time. Through good rulership, you can increase your blood power. You note the rule in the BRCS... this was not an original rule. Nonetheless, I don't think it refutes my point. In fact, I think it reinforces it. All the BRCS rule does is limits what could potentially be a broken rule. Under the old rules, there really wasn't much reason for most people's bloodline to be so low in power. With the BRCS, regents must take a more generational viewpoint, which I feel is more realistic anyways. In reference to Avanil, I've kinda felt that their bloodline dropped with the rest of them, but over the last several generations the Princes have managed to bring it back up through very effective rulership (spreading holdings into Tuornen, Diemed, gaining the vassalage of Brosengae and Taeghas, as well as Prince Avan's constant courting of every noble in Anuire... it should also be noted that in the original Ruins of Empire, it notes that Darien Avan courts the nobles as shamelessly as he courts the commoners... having a high loyalty in one's own realm certainly makes it easier to increase one's holdings, bringing in more regency for increasing bloodlines).
    Furthermore, rulership has a very direct effect as well. RP can be gained or lost based upon a regent's response to a random event. If that random event experiences a critical success or failure, bloodline strength can go up or down. The timeline is long enough that the Avans will have resolved enough random events to boost their bloodline strength by a not insignificant amount. Basically, all these things feed off each other: if one rules well, one's descendents will have more RP and a higher bloodline with which to undertake their actions.

    As for state temples, the original Book of Priestcraft stated that naming an official temple incurred a loss of one bloodline point to the province regent.

    To summarize: strength builds upon itself. The more successfull a dynasty is, the more successfull it will be in the future, barring some sort of disaster. The Avans have reached a sort of critical mass I think and become the most successful dynasty in Anuire, allowing their bloodline to shoot far above everyone elses.
    This sort of generational philosophy explains how a small but successful dynasty can eventually build itself up to be quite strong. The Avans may only have a distant relation to the Roele's any more, but if you combine the Roele blood with all the factors I mentioned above, you can get a substantial bloodline score.

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    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    As for state temples, the original Book of Priestcraft stated that naming an official temple incurred a loss of one bloodline point to the province regent.
    Unfortunately, I never owned the supplements such as the Book of Priestcraft, so I'm still at a loss on this one. What are the benefits of naming a state religion? They must be exceptional if the landed regent is willing to drop a permanent point of bloodline score.

    In my own campaign, raising one's Bloodline score through rulership (sufficient RP) is NEVER overlooked - it is the easiest way for strong rulers to increase their bloodline score. And gains of regency from resolving events and accomplishing great deeds (most of my adventures have this potential) can speed that process along a great deal, as you mentioned.

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    Site Moderator Fearless_Leader's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Osprey@Sep 30 2003, 07:33 AM
    Unfortunately, I never owned the supplements such as the Book of Priestcraft, so I'm still at a loss on this one. What are the benefits of naming a state religion? They must be exceptional if the landed regent is willing to drop a permanent point of bloodline score.

    In my own campaign, raising one's Bloodline score through rulership (sufficient RP) is NEVER overlooked - it is the easiest way for strong rulers to increase their bloodline score. And gains of regency from resolving events and accomplishing great deeds (most of my adventures have this potential) can speed that process along a great deal, as you mentioned.
    I don't overlook it in my games either, but it often is overlooked in discussions such as this. More specifically, I mean that it's overlooked when trying to explain the current state of bloodlines in Anuire. For example, when you say that the Avans must descend from something other than a cadet branch of the Roele's, this arguement, I believe, defeats that line of reasoning... which is where this whole discussion started.

    The advantage in naming a state faith, is of course, gaining the support of said temple. The relevant passage in the BoP, pg. 70 reads thusly: "... a state religion weakens the authority of the king to some degree, since the king must fear the censure of the high priest. A recognized faith weakens the king's bloodline score by 1 point at the time the religion is recognized (in the manner of the Matter of Justice random event), and if the priest regent chooses to oppose any actions taken by the king, he may apply a 2 point modifier to the king's action check (in favor of the priest's preferred result). On the other hand, recognizing a state religion may save the king face down the road." The rules then go on to explain the benefits a priest gets for being the state faith.
    So while there are no rules benefits for the realm regent, the benefits would primarily be in-game, scenario driven politics.

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