Good And Evil In Anuire

[geeman]

At 01:25 AM 9/24/2003 +0200, irdeggman wrote:



> BoP pg 83 "The resurrected character could possibly win a new domain

> elsewhere in Cerilia, since he retains his bloodline (unless he willingly

> gave it away by designating it before his death). Unless he builds a new

> domain, he is treated as a scion and not as a regent."

>

> So technically there is nothing preventing an undead from being a scion.

> Now there is a lot from preventing an undead from being a regent. IMO we

> can assume (and really have to for a variety of reasons) that things work

> differently in the Shadow World.



It`s still questionable IMO whether a character who "returns to life" as an

undead creature will retain his bloodline. There are different kinds of

undead, of course, each having different effects and states, but in general

undead are corpses animated by negative planar energy, which isn`t quite

the same as being alive. Undead don`t have a soul in the sense that the

living do. Upon what does the bloodline anchor in the scion? If it

weren`t in some way tied to his soul and were housed in his flesh alone

then wouldn`t it remain in his body after death? Wouldn`t the corpse

retain that aspect of the godly power despite the soul`s departure? Since

one can`t commit bloodtheft on a corpse it seems that bloodline is in some

way tied to the soul or life force of the character rather than to his body

alone, so if his body were revived as an undead without his actual soul

being returned to it, it seems to me that he may lack the bloodline that he

had "in life."



If someone were to animate the corpse of a scion using the Animate Dead

spell I don`t think the resulting zombie or skeleton would have a

bloodline, blood abilities and the capacity to control a domain and gain

regency. Other more advanced and powerful undead creatures might be more

easily justified having a bloodline, but it does depend on how one

interprets bloodline being embodied, as well as the description of what it

is that becoming undead does to the body itself. Aside from the lack of a

real intelligence for such things, a "soul" or something beyond simple

animation would seem to be necessary.



It is possible to have a soul and still be undead, but I`d suggest that

it`s not the norm. I`m trying to avoid references to Buffy the Vampire

Slayer and Angel, but they really are apt, so I`m just going to suggest

that being undead and having a soul would be the kind of thing that an

undead creature would have to acquire on purpose rather than something they

have automatically.



The awnsheghlien who are "undead" (the Vampire and the Magian) are probably

not truly undead in the standard D&D sense. We don`t really know about the

Magian`s origin, and the "rules" for a lich may be different from other

undead, but most likely they are simply awnsheghlien whose transformation

takes on the appearance of undead in an archetypal sense rather than in the

sense that they are truly beings that are "beyond death" like typical undead.



Gary

[destowe]

Then what about the existince of Blooded weapons in the BRCS?

This inanimate object holds a bloodline. It seems to support the divine essence of the gods run in the blood of living beings. Perhaps in unliving beings it is uniformly spread and only is released upon complete destruction.

And then there are the sielshegh gems. They enhance the blood and have divine essence in them.

Both of these objects only react when around an intelligent creature to utilize the powers.

Perhaps if the item was itself intelligent, it could use the blood abilities like a character.

An intelligent inanimate object is not the exact same as intelligent undead, but I think helps the discussion.

[geeman]

At 11:37 PM 9/24/2003 +0200, destowe wrote:



>Then what about the existince of Blooded weapons in the BRCS?

>

>This inanimate object holds a bloodline. It seems to support the divine

>essence of the gods run in the blood of living beings. Perhaps in

>unliving beings it is uniformly spread and only is released upon complete

>destruction.



I don`t know what the inspiration for blooded weapons was, but I could

suggest a couple of justifications for them. In at least one case I can

think of the magical power of a weapon in a fantasy fiction was based on

the connection of that item to an extraplanar soul. Stormbringer, for

instance, in Moorcock`s work isn`t really a sword at all. It`s a being

from another plane of existence that takes the form of a sword as part of

its material manifestation and goal to suck away souls and operate as an

agent of destiny. Blooded weapons could be the BR equivalent.



It`s probably impossible to not at least reference the BtVS stuff regarding

vampires gaining a soul, but a parallel effort on the part of someone who

creates such an item could be used as a rationale for such things. There

are the occasional "unique circumstances" in the BR where a being that

normally could not have gained a bloodline does so despite the actual rules

regarding such things. The Boar, the Wolf and the Chimaera being examples

of unusual bloodtheft/investiture. An inanimate object would probably

require a step to begin with in order to "invest" it with a soul before it

could be invested with a bloodline making for, perhaps, a doubly unlikely

set of "unique circumstances" but it`s a possibility.



Assuming, that is, that one thinks a soul is required for a bloodline in

the first place. One way or another a little thought as to how such items

might be made or what the requirements would be for them might be in order.



Gary

[destowe]

There was a small blurb under Usuraption about people, animals, and on very rare occasions, even objects in the immediate area of a scion's violent death may absorb a portion of the scion's divine essence.

So it seems that they are using bloodline and divine essence as interchangable terms.

Maybe if it was blood it is a bloodline, if it doesn't call it divine essence.

But they should both have the same abilities.

(Of course a rock with endurance will not do much. Give it a divine aura and it could become an heirloom item for a regent.)

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by geeman@Sep 24 2003, 07:22 PM
At 11:37 PM 9/24/2003 +0200, destowe wrote:



>Then what about the existince of Blooded weapons in the BRCS?

>

>This inanimate object holds a bloodline. It seems to support the divine

>essence of the gods run in the blood of living beings. Perhaps in

>unliving beings it is uniformly spread and only is released upon complete

>destruction.



I don`t know what the inspiration for blooded weapons was, but I could

suggest a couple of justifications for them. In at least one case I can

think of the magical power of a weapon in a fantasy fiction was based on

the connection of that item to an extraplanar soul. Stormbringer, for

instance, in Moorcock`s work isn`t really a sword at all. It`s a being

from another plane of existence that takes the form of a sword as part of

its material manifestation and goal to suck away souls and operate as an

agent of destiny. Blooded weapons could be the BR equivalent.

Gary

From several places:

BoM - the already mentioned Sielshegh gems/artifacts, especially the write up on the Sielehr.

BoP - the spell blood bank, which allows storage of a bloodline in an item

BoR - the Sword of Blood which actually has a bloodline (and blood abilites) imbued and they are accessable by the user of the item, unlike the other references.

BoR - blood armor

[DanMcSorley]

On Wed, 24 Sep 2003, Gary wrote:

> Assuming, that is, that one thinks a soul is required for a bloodline in

> the first place. One way or another a little thought as to how such items

> might be made or what the requirements would be for them might be in order.



There are a number of gems that received divine bloodlines during

Deismaar. Sielshegh, something like that, from the Book of Magecraft. So

it`s not unheard of for inanimate objects to be imbued with divine blood.



--

Daniel McSorley

[Osprey]

> Assuming, that is, that one thinks a soul is required for a bloodline in
> the first place. One way or another a little thought as to how such items
> might be made or what the requirements would be for them might be in order. [Gary]

There are a number of gems that received divine bloodlines during
Deismaar. Sielshegh, something like that, from the Book of Magecraft. So
it`s not unheard of for inanimate objects to be imbued with divine blood.

--
Daniel McSorley

Imbued with divine energy? OK, but not a bloodline, at least not in a literal sense. There's no way a PC would smash a sielshegh and have it bleed all over the ground.

Metaphysically, I think it's important to clarify that the blast at Deismaar was a massive blast of divine energy, not a gory explosion of divine blood. The blast was absorbed by the blood of surviving heroes and aligned soldiers, as well as a few inanimate objects (the sielshegh). But given the low number and strength of the sielshegh (50 Bloodline per god, yes?) compared to living recipients, it obviously is a rarity for divine energy to naturally gravitate towards inanimate objects of any sort.

However, Deismaar is an example of what those divine energies will do without any sort of magical manipulation. Given the number of spells designed to manipulate bloodlines and their powers, it's hard to really place much of a limit on what could be done regarding enchantments and things like undead.

The essential power would be the spell/ritual that converts bloodlines into their pure energy form. In other words, a kind of purification or distillation of the divine energies within the bloodlines. I imagine this would be in the realm of the Wish spell, although another level 9 spell could be created in 3e. Optionally, it could also be a Realm Spell to represent the incredible amounts of power necessary to accomplish such a feat.

The second power would be the spell that could move these energies from one receptacle to another. This could either be interwoven into the first spell (which makes sense, especially if its a ritual realm spell), or its own (lower level) spell. Perhaps level 5-7?

I would allow these for both arcane and divine casters (clerics and mages). Different methods, same results.

The obvious application would be to create magic items with bloodlines: weapons, armor, even sielshegh would logically be within the capabilities of this spell. Of course, rare is the 17th level caster in Cerilia!

The second application could be things like creating Greater (sentient) Undead, such as spectres, wraiths, shadows, wights, and possibly spectral scions. The idea being that they need only a small amount of divine energy to be created (say, convert drained Bloodline to RP as in Bloodtheft, create up to 1 HD of greater undead per RP).

For high-level campaigns: offer some stolen bloodline energy as payment to some greater being of the Shadow World such as a Nightshade or Death Knight - perhaps 1 point of Bloodline strength per month of service (replacing demonic/ infernal service in Cerilia).

I've always imagined Shadow Mages and Necromancers replacing the demonologists of other [higher] fantasy realms.

Just some ideas for those who are interested. Cheers!

Osprey

[ryancaveney]

On Fri, 26 Sep 2003, Osprey wrote:



> Imbued with divine energy? OK, but not a bloodline, at least not in a

> literal sense. There`s no way a PC would smash a sielshegh and have

> it bleed all over the ground.

>

> Metaphysically, I think it`s important to clarify that the blast at

> Deismaar was a massive blast of divine energy, not a gory

> explosion of divine blood.



I`m having a hard time reconciling these statements. Why in one case do

you seem to think the physical container of the magical energy is more

important than the energy itself, but in the other you disagree? Since

you`re happy with the gods not literally spraying blood everywhere, I find

it hard to see why you are disappointed that liberating identical energy

from rocks wouldn`t literally spray blood either. To me, although the

energy is often transmitted between living creatures through their blood,

it is not actually *part of* the blood, and is more important than the

literal blood; for example, I don`t think bloodline investiture requires a

transfusion, and I don`t think you do either. In fact, depending on how

seriously one takes some of the more esoteric theories about elves and

dwarves, it is entirely possible that one or both of those races don`t

have actual blood, but have "bloodlines" anyway because they are imbued

with the same energy, albeit in a slightly different medium.





Ryan Caveney

[ryancaveney]

> From: "Osprey" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

>

> > Now that I think of it, might Spectral Scions fill niches in the

> > Shadow World as the Shadow Regents? Would their domains be negative

> > energy shadows of the living world?



IMO, there are definitely regents in the Shadow World, and they use

exactly the same domain rules for interacting with each other that normal

"light side" regents do. My shadow world looks very much like Cerilia --

except that all the humans are undead instead, it`s colder and darker, and

the crops the undead peasants grow look rather weird to living eyes...





On Mon, 22 Sep 2003, Kenneth Gauck wrote:



> Keep in mind that one plot of land will have many former rules now

> deceased. The problem with a direct shodow mirror is that there are

> could be 50-100 spirits who once claimed rule over a province, or

> maybe just died ruling it.



Do you use reincarnation? That could definitely help. Also, is the

Shadow World exactly the same thing as the afterlife? I am inclined to

think not.





Ryan Caveney

[geeman]

At 01:32 PM 9/26/2003 -0400, Daniel McSorley wrote:



> > Assuming, that is, that one thinks a soul is required for a bloodline in

> > the first place. One way or another a little thought as to how such items

> > might be made or what the requirements would be for them might be in order.

>

>There are a number of gems that received divine bloodlines during

>Deismaar. Sielshegh, something like that, from the Book of Magecraft. So

>it`s not unheard of for inanimate objects to be imbued with divine blood.



I don`t know that they really received a bloodline per se. They act as

bonuses to bloodline score when used by a regent of the appropriate

derivation, but that`s not quite the same as having a bloodline

themselves. The function differs in certain fundamental ways. They don`t

have blood abilities, nor would they do anything like collect regency on

their own in little mineral empires should they not be utilized by a

regent. Most importantly, bloodlines don`t interact with one another the

way sielshegh gems interact with regents. That is, two regents can`t get

together and pool their bloodline strength score without vassalage

agreements, etc. in quite the same way, so I don`t know if it`s quite the

same thing. One can`t stab them through the

heart/center/core/inclusion/whatever and release the power of their

bloodline through bloodtheft (though upon reflection that might not be such

a bad idea...) and they fundamentally lack those aspects of a bloodline

that make a character a scion--blood abilities, regency collection, etc.



As a loose comparison, I`d suggest that the situation might be more akin to

radiation exposure in that sci-fi/comic book kind of way. Sielshegh gems

are merely irradiated by their exposure to the powers released at Deismaar,

while the people present and thus exposed were mutated (like the Fantastic

Four subjected to cosmic rays, or the Hulk`s gamma radiation.) Possession

of sielshegh gems might enhance a mutation or strength a character (a sort

of Cerilian crypto-Kryptonite if you will) but it doesn`t really make the

stones themselves mutated/blooded.



However, I suppose the description of sielshegh as "stones with a

bloodline" is apt in that the powers of sielshegh gems could be used as a

model for the inanimate object`s version of a bloodline, but we should be

kind of careful applying that sort of thing since there were so many suits

of armor, weapons, belt buckles, shoes, holy symbols, codpieces, corpses,

etc. lying around the Battle of Deismaar that could have been similarly

imbued should they be aligned to a god in whatever way it was that the gems

were aligned to the gods that allowed for their empowerment. (I have a

couple of ideas for what might align a codpiece, but apparently the new

additions D20 license will prevent any such material.)



Gary