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  1. #21
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    Now that I think of it, might Spectral Scions fill niches in the Shadow World as the Shadow Regents? Would their domains be negative energy shadows of the living world?

    Someone I know is actually trying to put Ghostwalk together with Birthright (they call it "Deathright" :lol: ). Funny name, but some interesting possibilities for full-scale adventures in the Shadow World.

  2. #22
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----

    From: "Osprey" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

    Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 12:30 AM





    > Now that I think of it, might Spectral Scions fill niches in the Shadow

    > World as the Shadow Regents? Would their domains be negative

    > energy shadows of the living world?



    Keep in mind that one plot of land will have many former rules now deceased.

    The problem with a direct shodow mirror is that there are could be 50-100

    spirits who once claimed rule over a province, or maybe just died ruling it.

    Since our world is temporal and the afterlife is eternal, we cannot think of

    one shadow regent, if we cling to a direct mirror.



    Kenneth Gauck

    kgauck@mchsi.com

  3. #23
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    Originally posted by irdeggman@Sep 21 2003, 12:11 AM
    Except for the fact that a bloodline is not a granted thing. They only came about because of the "death" and the spilt blood of the former gods.
    Acctually, BLOODSPAWN claims that this is exactly what the Cold RIder does -- gives out teeny-tiny Azrai bloodlines to his halfling overlords so they can perpetuate their little dictatorships in the Shadow World (pg 33).

  4. #24
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    Keep in mind that one plot of land will have many former rules now deceased.
    The problem with a direct shodow mirror is that there are could be 50-100
    spirits who once claimed rule over a province, or maybe just died ruling it.
    Since our world is temporal and the afterlife is eternal, we cannot think of
    one shadow regent, if we cling to a direct mirror.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com
    It&#39;s not the regents, but rather the domains that would be mirrored. Most regents have souls, and will pass on to the afterlife. Spectral Scions are more like lost or captured souls, and wouldn&#39;t be too numerous.

    We need not cling to closely to the domains&#39; "real world" equivalents. The Shadow World split a long time ago, and machinations in the SW could have reshaped things significantly. The main idea was that there could be a system of SW bloodlines and regency.

  5. #25
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by son of the warlord+Sep 22 2003, 09:25 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (son of the warlord @ Sep 22 2003, 09:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--irdeggman@Sep 21 2003, 12:11 AM
    Except for the fact that a bloodline is not a granted thing.* They only came about because of the "death" and the spilt blood of the former gods.*
    Acctually, BLOODSPAWN claims that this is exactly what the Cold RIder does -- gives out teeny-tiny Azrai bloodlines to his halfling overlords so they can perpetuate their little dictatorships in the Shadow World (pg 33). [/b][/quote]
    True enough Blood Spawn indicates that the Cold Rider can siphon off part of his essence in order to create a bloodline.

    Blood Spawn, pg 33 “Domain Lords gain their power by giving themselves over to the Cold Rider, worshipping him as a god. In exchange for their loyalty, he invests these followers with a seed of evil: a sliver of his own essence that takes the form of a tainted bloodline.”

    Now I tend to look towards the preponderance of evidence in order to figure out what I should and should not take as the way things are supposed to be. Given the tremendous amount of editorial problems with the entire Birthright line this is a must. I also tend to give greater weight to books in a hierarchy. The DMG takes precedence over the PHB, books like Tome and Blood (if used) take precedence when the subject is wizards and sorcerers since that book was specifically written to supplement information on those two classes.

    Now for the topic at hand, should blood lines be able to be granted by a deity?

    There is the reference you cited in the for column. In the against column there are:

    Atlas of Cerlia, pgs 8, 9 “Power flowed through them and about them, reflecting the natures of the gods who had sacrificed these energies.”

    and

    BR Rulebook, pgs 20, 21 “When the gods of the Andu, the Rjuven, the Brechts, the Basarji and even the Masetians faced Azrai at the Battle of Mount Deismaar, they gave up their own immortal lives in order to stop their evil brother. The mortals who survived absorbed the essences of these individual deities.”

    Now since Blood Spawn is not a supplemental book of bloodlines, etc. – it is a self proclaimed Monstrous Compendium. Neither the Book of Regency nor the Book of Priestcraft really talks about ‘how the bloodlines were formed’ the hierarchy for these references is (to me at least) the BR Rulebook, the Atlas of Cerilia and then Blood Spawn. Hence I take the reference in Blood Spawn as being in error or at the very least being irrelevant in this aspect rather than being the actual cannon material to use as a basis. It also brings up a rather interesting problem as to what this tainted bloodline actually is – since the old gods had to take physical form in order to die and spill their blood. Is it Azrai’s bloodline or the Cold Riders? It also opens the door to any scion being able to create a bloodline by siphoning off some of themselves, at least for those with True bloodlines like the Cold Rider.
    Duane Eggert

  6. #26
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by irdeggman+Sep 20 2003, 12:00 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (irdeggman @ Sep 20 2003, 12:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Osprey@Sep 20 2003, 12:44 AM
    How the heck could undead have a Blooded descriptor? Divine power, sure, but in the form of a bloodline? :blink:
    IN 2nd ed, just because a scion died didn&#39;t mean he was no longer blooded. He no longer had any regency and his tie to the land but there was nothing that really stated he lost his bloodline unless he was slain through the heart. [/b][/quote]
    I found the reference I was looking for.

    BoP pg 83 “The resurrected character could possibly win a new domain elsewhere in Cerilia, since he retains his bloodline (unless he willingly gave it away by designating it before his death). Unless he builds a new domain, he is treated as a scion and not as a regent.”

    So technically there is nothing preventing an undead from being a scion. Now there is a lot from preventing an undead from being a regent. IMO we can assume (and really have to for a variety of reasons) that things work differently in the Shadow World.
    Duane Eggert

  7. #27
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by kgauck@Sep 20 2003, 09:08 PM
    ----- Original Message -----

    From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

    Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2003 6:11 PM



    > Except for the fact that a bloodline is not a granted thing.



    I believe we are talking about bloodline investiture (p81 BoP) with the

    alteration that one can invest a part of one`s bloodline. Alternatly, the

    bloodline is taken by force from captives and bloodline investiture is used

    to "imbue some of the

    more powerful undead with some bloodline". Whether the source of this

    bloodline is captives, defeated enemies, the Cold Rider, or some other

    source, its transmitted by bloodline investiture.



    Kenneth Gauck

    kgauck@mchsi.com












    As far as investing a portion of a bloodline. I stick by my original statement that investiture is an all or nothing thing. We shouldn’t be using house rules as a basis for treating something as cannon. I cite the following as my basis:

    BR Rulebook, pg 30 “ A character can voluntarily pass his bloodline to another character by participating in a ceremony of investiture. The recipient of the bloodline increases his bloodline to the power of the donor, while the donor reduces himself to 0. In effect, the donor gives up all his heritage and passes it to another individual.”

    and

    BoP, pg 81 “The last type of investiture ceremony commonly employed in Cerilia is the bloodline investiture, in which one character gains the entirety of another’s bloodline.”
    Duane Eggert

  8. #28
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Doyle@Sep 20 2003, 08:43 PM
    I was going on the `the CR is what was remaining of Azrai after the

    battle` theory. Also, isn`t there some spell `imbue bloodline` or

    something like that? It may have been something I got from a post long

    ago that was never formally integrated in.

    Doyle.

    As far as spells that grant bloodlines – I hadn’t found any references in the 2nd ed books. The spells I did find were: BoP – enhance blood ability (temporary), imbue with blood ability (temporary), blood bank, restore bloodline, destroy bloodline. BoM – enhance blood ability (temporary), suppress blood ability (temporary), mimic blood ability (temporary), suppress blood line (temporary) and blood drain.
    Duane Eggert

  9. #29
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    Create spawn might be the answer to what we are looking for.

    The creator is technically the parent of the new undead.

    Divide the undead scion&#39;s bloodscore in half and give it to the new undead. If the new undead was a scion before, add the two scores together before divinding.

    How they would raise it, no clue at this time.

  10. #30
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 01:31 AM 9/24/2003 +0200, irdeggman wrote:



    >As far as spells that grant bloodlines * I hadn’t found any references in

    >the 2nd ed books. The spells I did find were: BoP * enhance blood ability

    >(temporary), imbue with blood ability (temporary), blood bank, restore

    >bloodline, destroy bloodline. BoM * enhance blood ability (temporary),

    >suppress blood ability (temporary), mimic blood ability (temporary),

    >suppress blood line (temporary) and blood drain.



    There`s also the Magian`s 9th level Bloodline Corruption spell that

    permanently changes bloodline derivation in BE:AoC p65.



    The possibility that Azrai in some way still exists as the Cold Rider does

    provide a rationale for the creation of tainted bloodlines amongst the SW`s

    halfling community (and gives us a hint as to what was happening when Azrai

    created The Lost) but it`s not really necessary given that we don`t really

    know that much about the Cold Rider in the first place. He could be a

    deity of his own right, or some sort of near divine being, so his ability

    to create a bloodline might simply be the BR equivalent of Planescape`s

    proxies. Scions and proxies aren`t necessarily mutually exclusive

    possibilities, of course, but for BR purposes it would seem redundant to

    have them both in the setting.



    However, it should be noted that given the capacity of the Magian to alter

    bloodlines, and the possibility that he created his own bloodline after

    arriving on Cerilia (or even Aebrynis) from who knows where, that it may be

    possible to enhance or even create a bloodline with conventional (1st-9th

    level) spells. Wish spells, for instance, can raise an ability score by up

    to +5, so it`s easy to extrapolate that Wishes would have a similar effect

    on a bloodline score. What might be the effect of wishing for a higher

    bloodline score? +1 would seem a minimum, though the original BRCS use of

    bloodline as an ability score would seem to indicate that at least +2 would

    be more apt since that system equated the bloodline as an ability score

    with the original bloodline score system at 1:2. I could even see a bonus

    up to +5 as being acceptable.



    Someone might even be able to create his/her own bloodline using one or

    more Wish spells. The section of that spell description that describes the

    XP costs of casting Wish spells could be used as a guideline for how much

    of a bloodline is granted by such a spell, especially if such rules are

    used in conjunction with templates or other standard ECL features of 3e

    since they mesh pretty well.



    Gary

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