A Variant For The Sidhe

[Vallariel]

Originally posted by Osprey@Sep 17 2003, 09:11 AM
What if clerical healing magic on only works on beings with a mortal soul? That would make for a neat explanation of why clerics can't heal elves.

That is a very good explanation.

But then one must define soul. For to me, an elf has soul.
Def: 1.n. The immortal part of man as distinguished from his body. The moral and emotional nature of man as distinguised from his mind.The vital principle which moves and animates all life.A human being. (I ignore this part since the dictionary wasn't made to represent humans and elves.lol.)Personification or embodiment.Emotional expressiveness that appeals for emotional response in others.
But if one were to take the first part, and say ok, humans only (and lol, the human being part too. ) what then 'is' The vital principle which moves and animates all life for the Sidhelien?

Or he could just place lots of plants in pots around the elf (); an alternative would be to place an elf in a small glade. This latter enhances drama and role-playing, in the need to get their friend into a forest before it is too late!

ROFLMAO! Very funny. In my minds eye, I can see an outdoor balcony, a lot of sunshine, and one dying elf, lying surrounded by potted palms and miniature roses, in terracotta pots....

Since the elves look on the gods as something akin to powerful humans, my
question would be along these line: if you were laying in a puddle of your own blood and guts and a very skilled surgeon came along and said "I can heal you, but I should warn you that I believe in the Great Grax whom you despise. Should I leave you to die or fix you?" Unless you happen to be one of those odd aberrant the odds are overwhelming that you will take the healing.
There is a saying in medicine: There are no atheists in the OR and no technophobes among the terminally ill.

That Randy, is probably very true. But ahhh to roleplay (to death..lol...) the endless moral dilema.... To make your PC come up with a TRUE (and good) reason (justification?) he could accept such healing...
Endless potential....
Karen

[Vallariel]

I don't think an elf should be able to be raised, resurrected or reincarnated.

Otherwise where is the tragedy of the loss of immortal life?

Truely though, I don't think anyone, except in the most amazing of divine circumstances, should ever be.

[RaspK_FOG]

I like the idea Justinius_ExMortis came up with (and I, in turn, am glad you liked my ideas). The concept of having an elven child be born after a year in responce to the death of another elf is really fascinating; the loss of identity would then of course be crucial, but imagine the dramatic storylines (not tragic, mind you) that the individual DM could come up with!

I am proposing that Sidhe reincarnate only as a flavour device; I am not the Elf Lover some of my friends really are, even if I like them. To me, BR simply made all races seem as if drawn from the Realms of Fantasy, unlike the more two-dimensional standard races we have in other campaign settings.

[geeman]

At 06:35 PM 9/17/2003 +0200, Osprey wrote:



> If elves don`t have immortal souls, then why do then discuss them as if

> they did? If they don`t have souls, then there is no life after death,

> right? Life after death is a concept directly contingent upon having a

> soul. If there`s a different metaphysical reason behind the elves`

> spirits sticking around, I`d like to hear it.



I should note that there`s not a lot of stuff to support this in the BR

materials. It is my own extrapolation that I`m basing on a few hints here

and there, and some influence from other fantasy authors and real world

myths and metaphysics.



The terms here are more than a little vague, so let me first give some

definitions for the purpose of this discussion:



Life Force: The motivating power that animates a living being (as opposed

to a magical energy that might animate a golem, skeleton, etc.)



Soul: A life force that passes on to other planes after death.



Spirit: A life force that remains in the material world after death.



Both souls and spirits are life forces. Either a soul or a spirit will

give a person "life". We could also posit some sort of "anti-soul" that

motivates the intelligent undead, but that`s not going to really enter into

this particular discussion.



For the purpose of the metaphysics of BR, I`m suggesting that humans (and

other mortals) have souls, while elves have spirits. Having a soul means

that when one dies that life force must travel beyond the material world

and into a plane of reward/punishment/bliss, etc. Having a spirit means

that one is functionally immortal (barring violent death) on the material

plane, and in the case of violent death one rejoins the energies of the

material plane rather than journeying on. As an ancillary bonus, creatures

who have a spirit are more connected to the nature of the material plane

(like elves) and derive certain benefits thereof.



However, a spirit will not continue to survive after the world itself dies,

where a soul could pass on to new worlds. The only difference then between

a spirit and a soul is that a spirit`s energy remains in the physical world

while a soul`s energy moves on. That difference might effect things like

the ability of the various spells that return a life force to a body

(reincarnation, resurrection, raise dead, clone) might or might not work

depending on how one wants to interpret the functions of those spells, but

arguments could be made on either side of that issue, so it`s not really

something I`m concerned by. Essentially the difference between a soul and

a spirit is their destination after death and the fact that a soul is

potentially infinite where a spirit has a definite (albeit distant) end.



What I am interested in are the differences in earthly manifestations

between the two kinds of creatures, and how those things might effect the

role-play and game mechanics of those characters. Spirits might

spontaneously (to that extent that anything regarding a soul is

spontaneous, that is) return to life without a spell, but in a different,

earth-bound form. What if one of the aspects of the elven love of nature

is that they are guarding the spirits of their dead returned in plant and

animal form? That would certainly explain their animosity towards races

that chop down trees. What advantages might elves have (other than

remaining ever young) gain from their closer connection to the material

world? Several of these are already described for elves, but with a more

articulated metaphysical system for their differences from human, what

others might make sense or which of their existing ones might need review?



Gary

[geeman]

At 07:11 PM 9/17/2003 +0200, Osprey wrote:



>What if clerical healing magic on only works on beings with a mortal

>soul? That would make for a neat explanation of why clerics can`t heal elves.



I like the idea (if coupled with a rapid healing for elves when in a

natural environment) and I think it could also be used as an explanation

for why they can`t be priests. I`ve always preferred the interpretation

that elves can`t be priests, but that an elf can. That is, that as a

campaign setting`s core material an elven priest was "ruled out" because

allowing it in the rules amounts to providing a demographic of such

characters. The few elves who worship the gods (as is described in the

Tuarhieval SB) don`t register on the "core setting rules" scale. The

original materials BTW are full of individuals who break the "rules" of

both D&D and the setting itself. Vos paladins, Khinasi necromancers,

etc. An elf priest isn`t a particular stretch given BR tendancy to violate

its own tenets. If divine magics are tied to an immortal soul (as opposed

to an earth-bound spirit) it might make for a more definite prohibition

against elven priests.



There is, however, one problem with the idea with elves being uneffected by

healing magic.... Does it make them similarly immune to other divine

magics? By extension shouldn`t they be similarly immune to offensive

divine spells?



Gary

[RaspK_FOG]

I think this would not be too good:
Reincarnation rate: 1 year/ECL

This might as well be true for half-elves, but this would need a lot more discussion... What do you think?

[RaspK_FOG]

For the purpose of the metaphysics of BR, I`m suggesting that humans (and
other mortals) have souls, while elves have spirits. Having a soul means
that when one dies that life force must travel beyond the material world
and into a plane of reward/punishment/bliss, etc. Having a spirit means
that one is functionally immortal (barring violent death) on the material
plane, and in the case of violent death one rejoins the energies of the
material plane rather than journeying on. As an ancillary bonus, creatures
who have a spirit are more connected to the nature of the material plane
(like elves) and derive certain benefits thereof.

However, a spirit will not continue to survive after the world itself dies,
where a soul could pass on to new worlds. The only difference then between
a spirit and a soul is that a spirit`s energy remains in the physical world
while a soul`s energy moves on. That difference might effect things like
the ability of the various spells that return a life force to a body
(reincarnation, resurrection, raise dead, clone) might or might not work
depending on how one wants to interpret the functions of those spells, but
arguments could be made on either side of that issue, so it`s not really
something I`m concerned by. Essentially the difference between a soul and
a spirit is their destination after death and the fact that a soul is
potentially infinite where a spirit has a definite (albeit distant) end.

So, what you propose, Gary, is that we take a more Middle Earthen approach to the matter of afterlife? Given the racial traits of the various races (which were obviously based on Middle Earth and its own races), that seems to be a good idea.

There is, however, one problem with the idea with elves being uneffected by healing magic.... Does it make them similarly immune to other divine magics? By extension shouldn`t they be similarly immune to offensive
divine spells?

I don't think so. Offensive divine magic rarely interacts with the soul of the target, and where it does, I don't think it would really be much to expect of it to work with spirits as well. Breaking up things was always easier than mending them, don't you think so?

[kgauck]

How often does one encounter clerics wanting to heal elves? This seems

about as neccesary as figuring out which gods in Cerilia gnomes worship.



I`ve always imposed penalties on healing friendly, then neutral, and

prohibited healing of hostile faithful. During my Baruk-Azhik campaign,

this created some interesting healing situations between dwarves and humans.

And I regarded Moradin and Haelyn as friendly.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[geeman]

At 12:42 AM 9/18/2003 +0200, you wrote:



> So, what you propose, Gary, is that we take a more Middle

> Earthen approach to the matter of afterlife? Given the racial traits of

> the various races (which were obviously based on Middle Earth and its own

> races), that seems to be a good idea.



In some of the macro themes, yes, I think that`s pretty much it. I find a

lot more direct relationships between BR and JRRT than in most other

campaign settings. I admit, however, that I`m something of a

Tolkienista. Though I like the particulars of BR, what I like most about

them is that they in many ways reference LotR and other influential pieces

of fantasy fiction. BR does fuse things like Tolkien`s elves with

Highlander`s quickening (bloodtheft) but where ever possible it makes sense

to me to keep as much of the "original" as possible since that not only

illustrates their origin, but how well the cross over into other material.



Of course, there are some special differences. I picture the role of the

SW in BR being much more profound and direct than in ME--even if the SW

does kind of look like the faded world that Frodo sees when he puts on the

Ring....



>

There is, however, one problem with the idea with elves being

> uneffected by healing magic.... Does it make them similarly immune to

> other divine magics? By extension shouldn`t they be similarly immune to

> offensive

> divine spells?

>

> I don`t think so. Offensive divine magic rarely interacts with the soul

> of the target, and where it does, I don`t think it would really be much

> to expect of it to work with spirits as well. Breaking up things was

> always easier than mending them, don`t you think so?



That makes some sense. Divine spells that are evocative would seem to not

interact with a soul or spirit much. In the same way that elves have

bonuses against enchantment spells, however, it might be prudent to look at

those schools to determine if they should have bonuses in other areas.



Gary

[Justinius_ExMortis]

I can agree that healing doesn't affect Elves due to a lack of an actual soul (BTW I totally agree with idea that Elves possess a spirit as their animating force and all other mortal creatures possess a soul) as it's easy to say that divine healing is very much an interaction between the healers god and the healee's soul and body. I also agree that offensive divine magics can affect an Elf for a variety of reasons. The easiest being that afflicting someone with a wound, leprosy, or being struck with lightning really doesn't involve a connection to the targets soul. The second being that I have always seen divine magic being a part of that dieties divine essence gifted to the cleric in a particualr form for use as the spell that form reflects. This makes excellent reasoning for spontaneous casing of healing spells because good gods are be default creative and restorative forces, seeking stability and creation (I'm open for any philosophical comments on stability and creation working as a twin process). As a god should be aware; generally; of what his divine essence is doing I think it not too far fetched to say that a god be inclined to say no to healing an Elven ally due to this same allies' lack of faith and say yes to crushing an elven opponent with great strokes of lightning.


Justinius_ExMortis
Entropy is my Master