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Thread: A Variant For The Sidhe
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09-17-2003, 06:14 PM #21
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But then one must define soul. For to me, an elf has soul.
Def: 1.n. The immortal part of man as distinguished from his body. The moral and emotional nature of man as distinguised from his mind.The vital principle which moves and animates all life.A human being. (I ignore this part since the dictionary wasn't made to represent humans and elves.lol.)Personification or embodiment.Emotional expressiveness that appeals for emotional response in others.
But if one were to take the first part, and say ok, humans only (and lol, the human being part too. ) what then 'is' The vital principle which moves and animates all life for the Sidhelien?
Or he could just place lots of plants in pots around the elf (); an alternative would be to place an elf in a small glade. This latter enhances drama and role-playing, in the need to get their friend into a forest before it is too late!
Since the elves look on the gods as something akin to powerful humans, my
question would be along these line: if you were laying in a puddle of your own blood and guts and a very skilled surgeon came along and said "I can heal you, but I should warn you that I believe in the Great Grax whom you despise. Should I leave you to die or fix you?" Unless you happen to be one of those odd aberrant the odds are overwhelming that you will take the healing.
There is a saying in medicine: There are no atheists in the OR and no technophobes among the terminally ill.
Endless potential....
KarenO hark, O hear! How thin and clear,
And thinner, clearer, farther going!
O sweet and far from cliff and scar
The Horns of Sielwode faintly blowing!
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09-17-2003, 06:22 PM #22
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I don't think an elf should be able to be raised, resurrected or reincarnated.
Otherwise where is the tragedy of the loss of immortal life?
Truely though, I don't think anyone, except in the most amazing of divine circumstances, should ever be.O hark, O hear! How thin and clear,
And thinner, clearer, farther going!
O sweet and far from cliff and scar
The Horns of Sielwode faintly blowing!
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09-17-2003, 10:21 PM #23
I like the idea Justinius_ExMortis came up with (and I, in turn, am glad you liked my ideas). The concept of having an elven child be born after a year in responce to the death of another elf is really fascinating; the loss of identity would then of course be crucial, but imagine the dramatic storylines (not tragic, mind you) that the individual DM could come up with!
I am proposing that Sidhe reincarnate only as a flavour device; I am not the Elf Lover some of my friends really are, even if I like them. To me, BR simply made all races seem as if drawn from the Realms of Fantasy, unlike the more two-dimensional standard races we have in other campaign settings.
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09-17-2003, 10:27 PM #24
At 06:35 PM 9/17/2003 +0200, Osprey wrote:
> If elves don`t have immortal souls, then why do then discuss them as if
> they did? If they don`t have souls, then there is no life after death,
> right? Life after death is a concept directly contingent upon having a
> soul. If there`s a different metaphysical reason behind the elves`
> spirits sticking around, I`d like to hear it.
I should note that there`s not a lot of stuff to support this in the BR
materials. It is my own extrapolation that I`m basing on a few hints here
and there, and some influence from other fantasy authors and real world
myths and metaphysics.
The terms here are more than a little vague, so let me first give some
definitions for the purpose of this discussion:
Life Force: The motivating power that animates a living being (as opposed
to a magical energy that might animate a golem, skeleton, etc.)
Soul: A life force that passes on to other planes after death.
Spirit: A life force that remains in the material world after death.
Both souls and spirits are life forces. Either a soul or a spirit will
give a person "life". We could also posit some sort of "anti-soul" that
motivates the intelligent undead, but that`s not going to really enter into
this particular discussion.
For the purpose of the metaphysics of BR, I`m suggesting that humans (and
other mortals) have souls, while elves have spirits. Having a soul means
that when one dies that life force must travel beyond the material world
and into a plane of reward/punishment/bliss, etc. Having a spirit means
that one is functionally immortal (barring violent death) on the material
plane, and in the case of violent death one rejoins the energies of the
material plane rather than journeying on. As an ancillary bonus, creatures
who have a spirit are more connected to the nature of the material plane
(like elves) and derive certain benefits thereof.
However, a spirit will not continue to survive after the world itself dies,
where a soul could pass on to new worlds. The only difference then between
a spirit and a soul is that a spirit`s energy remains in the physical world
while a soul`s energy moves on. That difference might effect things like
the ability of the various spells that return a life force to a body
(reincarnation, resurrection, raise dead, clone) might or might not work
depending on how one wants to interpret the functions of those spells, but
arguments could be made on either side of that issue, so it`s not really
something I`m concerned by. Essentially the difference between a soul and
a spirit is their destination after death and the fact that a soul is
potentially infinite where a spirit has a definite (albeit distant) end.
What I am interested in are the differences in earthly manifestations
between the two kinds of creatures, and how those things might effect the
role-play and game mechanics of those characters. Spirits might
spontaneously (to that extent that anything regarding a soul is
spontaneous, that is) return to life without a spell, but in a different,
earth-bound form. What if one of the aspects of the elven love of nature
is that they are guarding the spirits of their dead returned in plant and
animal form? That would certainly explain their animosity towards races
that chop down trees. What advantages might elves have (other than
remaining ever young) gain from their closer connection to the material
world? Several of these are already described for elves, but with a more
articulated metaphysical system for their differences from human, what
others might make sense or which of their existing ones might need review?
Gary
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09-17-2003, 10:27 PM #25
At 07:11 PM 9/17/2003 +0200, Osprey wrote:
>What if clerical healing magic on only works on beings with a mortal
>soul? That would make for a neat explanation of why clerics can`t heal elves.
I like the idea (if coupled with a rapid healing for elves when in a
natural environment) and I think it could also be used as an explanation
for why they can`t be priests. I`ve always preferred the interpretation
that elves can`t be priests, but that an elf can. That is, that as a
campaign setting`s core material an elven priest was "ruled out" because
allowing it in the rules amounts to providing a demographic of such
characters. The few elves who worship the gods (as is described in the
Tuarhieval SB) don`t register on the "core setting rules" scale. The
original materials BTW are full of individuals who break the "rules" of
both D&D and the setting itself. Vos paladins, Khinasi necromancers,
etc. An elf priest isn`t a particular stretch given BR tendancy to violate
its own tenets. If divine magics are tied to an immortal soul (as opposed
to an earth-bound spirit) it might make for a more definite prohibition
against elven priests.
There is, however, one problem with the idea with elves being uneffected by
healing magic.... Does it make them similarly immune to other divine
magics? By extension shouldn`t they be similarly immune to offensive
divine spells?
Gary
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09-17-2003, 10:28 PM #26
I think this would not be too good:
Reincarnation rate: 1 year/ECL
This might as well be true for half-elves, but this would need a lot more discussion... What do you think?
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09-17-2003, 10:42 PM #27For the purpose of the metaphysics of BR, I`m suggesting that humans (and
other mortals) have souls, while elves have spirits. Having a soul means
that when one dies that life force must travel beyond the material world
and into a plane of reward/punishment/bliss, etc. Having a spirit means
that one is functionally immortal (barring violent death) on the material
plane, and in the case of violent death one rejoins the energies of the
material plane rather than journeying on. As an ancillary bonus, creatures
who have a spirit are more connected to the nature of the material plane
(like elves) and derive certain benefits thereof.
However, a spirit will not continue to survive after the world itself dies,
where a soul could pass on to new worlds. The only difference then between
a spirit and a soul is that a spirit`s energy remains in the physical world
while a soul`s energy moves on. That difference might effect things like
the ability of the various spells that return a life force to a body
(reincarnation, resurrection, raise dead, clone) might or might not work
depending on how one wants to interpret the functions of those spells, but
arguments could be made on either side of that issue, so it`s not really
something I`m concerned by. Essentially the difference between a soul and
a spirit is their destination after death and the fact that a soul is
potentially infinite where a spirit has a definite (albeit distant) end.
There is, however, one problem with the idea with elves being uneffected by healing magic.... Does it make them similarly immune to other divine magics? By extension shouldn`t they be similarly immune to offensive
divine spells?
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09-17-2003, 11:17 PM #28
How often does one encounter clerics wanting to heal elves? This seems
about as neccesary as figuring out which gods in Cerilia gnomes worship.
I`ve always imposed penalties on healing friendly, then neutral, and
prohibited healing of hostile faithful. During my Baruk-Azhik campaign,
this created some interesting healing situations between dwarves and humans.
And I regarded Moradin and Haelyn as friendly.
Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com
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09-18-2003, 12:35 AM #29
At 12:42 AM 9/18/2003 +0200, you wrote:
> So, what you propose, Gary, is that we take a more Middle
> Earthen approach to the matter of afterlife? Given the racial traits of
> the various races (which were obviously based on Middle Earth and its own
> races), that seems to be a good idea.
In some of the macro themes, yes, I think that`s pretty much it. I find a
lot more direct relationships between BR and JRRT than in most other
campaign settings. I admit, however, that I`m something of a
Tolkienista. Though I like the particulars of BR, what I like most about
them is that they in many ways reference LotR and other influential pieces
of fantasy fiction. BR does fuse things like Tolkien`s elves with
Highlander`s quickening (bloodtheft) but where ever possible it makes sense
to me to keep as much of the "original" as possible since that not only
illustrates their origin, but how well the cross over into other material.
Of course, there are some special differences. I picture the role of the
SW in BR being much more profound and direct than in ME--even if the SW
does kind of look like the faded world that Frodo sees when he puts on the
Ring....
>There is, however, one problem with the idea with elves being
> uneffected by healing magic.... Does it make them similarly immune to
> other divine magics? By extension shouldn`t they be similarly immune to
> offensive
> divine spells?
> I don`t think so. Offensive divine magic rarely interacts with the soul
> of the target, and where it does, I don`t think it would really be much
> to expect of it to work with spirits as well. Breaking up things was
> always easier than mending them, don`t you think so?
That makes some sense. Divine spells that are evocative would seem to not
interact with a soul or spirit much. In the same way that elves have
bonuses against enchantment spells, however, it might be prudent to look at
those schools to determine if they should have bonuses in other areas.
Gary
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09-18-2003, 03:08 AM #30
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I can agree that healing doesn't affect Elves due to a lack of an actual soul (BTW I totally agree with idea that Elves possess a spirit as their animating force and all other mortal creatures possess a soul) as it's easy to say that divine healing is very much an interaction between the healers god and the healee's soul and body. I also agree that offensive divine magics can affect an Elf for a variety of reasons. The easiest being that afflicting someone with a wound, leprosy, or being struck with lightning really doesn't involve a connection to the targets soul. The second being that I have always seen divine magic being a part of that dieties divine essence gifted to the cleric in a particualr form for use as the spell that form reflects. This makes excellent reasoning for spontaneous casing of healing spells because good gods are be default creative and restorative forces, seeking stability and creation (I'm open for any philosophical comments on stability and creation working as a twin process). As a god should be aware; generally; of what his divine essence is doing I think it not too far fetched to say that a god be inclined to say no to healing an Elven ally due to this same allies' lack of faith and say yes to crushing an elven opponent with great strokes of lightning.
Justinius_ExMortis
Entropy is my Master
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