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  1. #1
    Moo! Are you happy now? Arjan's Avatar
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    Yesterday i was reading about the pre deismaar Vos race.

    The Vos used to be deviners and illusionists folowing Reynir, and switched sides to Azrai.

    but WHEN did they switch? I found pieces of text where the five tribes (page 4 Atlas of Cerilia) clustered in the northern portion of aduria before they fled to Cerilia. Does this mean they were still that mystical race?

    IMO In combination with the 3 maps on the back of the Atlas (occupation of cerilia) i think they were still. But i cant find any references.

    any idea?

    Arjan
    Te audire non possum. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure.

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    When they wound up in the cold frozen North, and found out that their best shot at enjoying a warmer climate, better food, and lots of captured concubines was to join in with that nice old dude dressed in black who just wanted some help redecorating the continent a bit in return.
    Jan E. Juvstad.

  3. #3
    Moo! Are you happy now? Arjan's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Mark_Aurel@Aug 18 2003, 07:05 PM
    When they wound up in the cold frozen North, and found out that their best shot at enjoying a warmer climate, better food, and lots of captured concubines was to join in with that nice old dude dressed in black who just wanted some help redecorating the continent a bit in return.
    they were illusionists! they could make an illusion of the snow to make it look like grass etc..

    hehe
    so you say. yes they were still devivers/illusionists when they fled to cerilia.

    they sought the truth in magic..
    Has any one thought about their way of life back then?

    Arjan
    Te audire non possum. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure.

  4. #4
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----

    From: "Arjan" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

    Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 12:53 PM





    > The Vos used to be deviners and illusionists folowing Reynir, and

    > switched sides to Azrai.but WHEN did they switch?



    I would date this event to somewhere just prior to Diesmaar. Ruornil, the

    Vos champion of Vorynn was still fighting for the soul of his people, and

    had a following of spellcasters. Whether it was during the generation fo

    Ruornil or the previous generation is open for speculation. I don`t think

    that the corrpution of the Vos was a fait accompli in Ruornil`s time.



    Kenneth Gauck

    kgauck@mchsi.com

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    Vos where NOT followers of reynir. They followed Vorryn .I thing Vos where closet of humans to use true magic. It is all-sad in players chronicle. Ancient history page 4. It even says that “many of THE LOST –the ancient wizards – and servent of azrai –sprang from adurian vos.Mighty in magic …bla bla” (they where WIZARDS and NON-BLODED)it is not sad that they where devivers or illusionists. Zoloskaya is still highly magical domain. Regent “Uvna (Farzeb)” or more correct “Srebrni sluga” – Silver Servant. She is wizard too (15 level) I think it is clear that Vos where capable of costing at least 6 level of true magic and that they where assimilate throw centuries(until Deismaar). But not ALL&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;. Almost whole Zoloskaya warship Liron (Lirovka is she)The Waning moon.
    ??? Why everybody thinks that Vos are stupid barbarians ???
    Vosgaard's Veliki hrast.

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    Vos where NOT followers of reynir. They followed Vorryn .I thing Vos where closet of humans to use true magic. It is all-sad in players chronicle. Ancient history page 4. It even says that “many of THE LOST –the ancient wizards – and servent of azrai –sprang from adurian vos.Mighty in magic …bla bla” (they where WIZARDS and NON-BLODED)it is not sad that they where devivers or illusionists. Zoloskaya is still highly magical domain. Regent “Uvna (Farzeb)” or more correct “Srebrni sluga” – Silver Servant. She is wizard too (15 level) I think it is clear that Vos where capable of costing at least 6 level of true magic and that they where assimilate throw centuries(until Deismaar). But not ALL&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;. Almost whole Zoloskaya warship Liron (Lirovka is she)The Waning moon.
    ??? Why everybody thinks that Vos are stupid barbarians ???
    Well, they *did* get a -1 penalty on Intelligence in 2e. That said, I don&#39;t think anyone thinks Vos are stupid - though they can certainly be barbaric, being a barbarian doesn&#39;t imply stupidity in the least. Conan was quite a clever fellow (apart from in the movie). It&#39;s just primarily that the Vos have changed from being a fairly peaceful people who revered magic to being the most warlike and backwards of the human nations (again, Vos are noted as being Dark Ages, while the others are Middle Ages or Renaissance). I don&#39;t think anyone is stupid just because they&#39;re forced into a situation like that, however.
    Jan E. Juvstad.

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    Well, they *did* get a -1 penalty on Intelligence in 2e. That said, I don&#39;t think anyone thinks Vos are stupid - though they can certainly be barbaric, being a barbarian doesn&#39;t imply stupidity in the least. Conan was quite a clever fellow (apart from in the movie).
    Well, barbarians are the only class that isn&#39;t automatically literate, and I think literacy is a rather defining trait. Although, just because a barbarian cannot read or write does not mean they cannot be intellectual on another level.
    As for Conan, contrary to the title "Conan the Barbarian" he more resembled a fighter/rogue in my opinion.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    Well, barbarians are the only class that isn&#39;t automatically literate, and I think literacy is a rather defining trait. Although, just because a barbarian cannot read or write does not mean they cannot be intellectual on another level.
    Oooh...you think literacy=intelligence? Boy, do I beg to differ&#33;

    Being a student of the Celts (specifically the pre-literate ones), I can tell you that their learned ones were impressively smart. Welsh bards sometimes spent as much as 20 years or more in training and memorization of history, songs, poems, law, etc. to achieve their full status in society.

    Literacy is simply a sign of a society that places a value on the written word. Many very intelligent societies simply disdained the written word, often because it gave universal access to privelaged information that was regarded as exclusive, even sacred knowledge. In other words, this was a reflection of the culture&#39;s social values, not their intellectual capabilities.

    Intelligence is raw intellectual ability, NOT a level of knowledge. Literate cultures would tend to have more average knowledge per person, but wouldn&#39;t necessarilly be smarter. That would depend on the culture&#39;s emphasis on the use of the mind versus the body (or spirit).

    Well, enough said.

    Osprey

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    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----

    From: "Osprey" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

    Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 3:40 PM





    > Literacy is simply a sign of a society that places a value on the written

    word.



    Actually I would say that literacy is a function of social complexity.

    Literacy is a necessary pre-condition for a bureaucracy. The Celts, in your

    example, were only becoming urban during the period of Roman contact, long

    after contact with the Greeks, who were literate well before contact with

    the Celts. The Celts engaged in trade with the Greeks, and their culture

    was influenced by that trade, but it did not include adopting or imitating

    Greek writing because there was no need for such record keeping.



    AFAIC, among the Vos and Rjurik there is no bureaucracy associated with most

    law and temple holdings, but is most prevelent among the guilder class.



    Kenneth Gauck

    kgauck@mchsi.com

  10. #10
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    Actually I would say that literacy is a function of social complexity.
    Literacy is a necessary pre-condition for a bureaucracy. The Celts, in your
    example, were only becoming urban during the period of Roman contact, long
    after contact with the Greeks, who were literate well before contact with
    the Celts. The Celts engaged in trade with the Greeks, and their culture
    was influenced by that trade, but it did not include adopting or imitating
    Greek writing because there was no need for such record keeping.
    Actually, the Celt traders did use and imitate Greek writing in trade, but it was prohibited from being used outside of that area.
    I should say that this is based on what I learned from professors of Celtic Studies at the University of Aberdeen (UK) about 5 years ago. And this is what they believe to be the case. I trust their expertise and dedication to weeding out the fluff and nonsense. But it&#39;s hard to be certain about anything from a 2000+ year-old oral culture. h34r:

    It&#39;s also been hypothesized that oghams were inspired by and developed from Greek script.


    AFAIC, among the Vos and Rjurik there is no bureaucracy associated with most
    law and temple holdings, but is most prevelent among the guilder class.
    Kenneth Gauck
    which actually ends up agreeing nicely with the historical reality: writing was useful for trade and settling arguments / record keeping between literate and non-literate cultures. Why would a Khinasi merchant trust the word and memory of a Vos trader? Better to have it in writing if trade is to exist at all&#33;

    Osprey

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