Bloodline Powers Expansion

[geeman]

At 11:05 AM 8/18/2003 +0200, Cinder wrote:



>I was hoping more people would have voted by now, oh well.



It usually takes a while for people to cast their votes for some reason. I

didn`t even vote on my own contribution to the bloodline stuff in the BRCS

until someone pointed out that nobody had voted for option C several weeks

after it was presented to the BR community. Not even me, and I flippin`

penned the thing.... Oh well.



>I like Birthright-L`s suggestion of a seperate netbook of blood abilities

>as it caters to everyone equally well. The people who don`t want to add

>to the powers can simply use the main set of rules, while those of us who

>do can download the supplement(s). Pretty slick idea B-L. What do you

>guys think?



I like it. BR already has a nice "Book of..." tradition going for it

too. In fact, the BP stuff might be more apt for a sort of Birthright D20

"Book of Regency" update rather than the "core" setting stuff

itself. Things that might be apt for BR:



Book of Realm Spells

Book of Trade and Commerce (I know there`s a book of guildcraft in the

works, but this might function more on trade and production set of

rules/guidelines rather than guilds alone.)

Book of Warfare

Book of War at Sea

Book of Statecraft (focusing on diplomacy, embassies, treaties,

alliances, etc.)



Gary

[Osprey]

Things that might be apt for BR:

Book of Realm Spells
Book of Trade and Commerce (I know there`s a book of guildcraft in the
works, but this might function more on trade and production set of
rules/guidelines rather than guilds alone.)
Book of Warfare
Book of War at Sea
Book of Statecraft (focusing on diplomacy, embassies, treaties,
alliances, etc.)

Gary

Wow, I think this is a really excellent way to go about adding BR supplements and optional / variant rules to the core ruleset. It seems like a good way to make the most people happy. I also like Lord Rahvin's suggestion of downloadable e-books that could be printed and easily added to the core rules hardcopy (in other words, formatted with a modular compatibility between core and supplemental rules).

And I'd very much like to see some of those titles that Gary mentioned get developed. A book of war ate sea would be fantastic.

And I think a Book of Bloodlines could combine new bloodline powers, variants for Bloodline rules, and a detailed set of rules for making new bloodline powers compatible with the current rules and setting. (and good examples of such). Also, perhaps writing out some examples of a full, well-developed bloodline (with background, lineage, common traits, etc.) might be helpful for players looking for depth-enrichment in their games. This last part could work well in the D20 Atlas, too...

All in all, I'm a fan of having new powers available in whatever form, as long as it is available in a way that I can print it out and add it to tabletop resources.

Osprey

[RaspK_FOG]

e-Books, huh? Yes, I really like the idea... B)

I propose we start thinking on new concepts and stuff... All of this! It sounds great, and the opportunity to discuss the new possibilities... It's too good to be true!

I say we go on with this. Of course, new things will need a lot of consideration, but I believe the community would love new "Books of" being released on the site!

[geeman]

At 10:52 PM 8/18/2003 +0200, Osprey wrote:



>

Things that might be apt for BR:

>

> Book of Realm Spells

> Book of Trade and Commerce (I know there`s a book of guildcraft in the

> works, but this might function more on trade and production set of

> rules/guidelines rather than guilds alone.)

> Book of Warfare

> Book of War at Sea

> Book of Statecraft (focusing on diplomacy, embassies,

> treaties, alliances, etc.)

>

>

> Wow, I think this is a really excellent way to go about adding BR

> supplements and optional / variant rules to the core ruleset. It seems

> like a good way to make the most people happy. I also like Lord Rahvin`s

> suggestion of downloadable e-books that could be printed and easily added

> to the core rules hardcopy (in other words, formatted with a modular

> compatibility between core and supplemental rules).



Yeah, the more I think about it the better I like it.



> And I`d very much like to see some of those titles that Gary mentioned

> get developed. A book of war ate sea would be fantastic.



I`d like to see that too. The guy whose still done the best treatment of

naval combat for D20 that I`ve seen is the Septentrionalis setting. He

captured a lot of very cool stuff about tactical combat under oars and

sail, and did so while keeping a good eye towards the historical period he

was going for. I`ve seen various naval wargames that have done a good job

too, but by and large they don`t mesh well with RPGs in my experience, so

I`ve never run what I would call a satisfactory naval combat in a RPG yet

even though I ran a couple of campaigns dedicated to sailing. Granted,

it`s been a long time since I ran those campaigns, but I still enjoy the

topic a lot, and there`s no reason they won`t get revisited at some point

in the future....



>And I think a Book of Bloodlines could combine new bloodline powers,

>variants for Bloodline rules, and a detailed set of rules for making new

>bloodline powers compatible with the current rules and setting. (and good

>examples of such). Also, perhaps writing out some examples of a full,

>well-developed bloodline (with background, lineage, common traits, etc.)

>might be helpful for players looking for depth-enrichment in their

>games. This last part could work well in the D20 Atlas, too...

>

> All in all, I`m a fan of having new powers available in whatever form,

> as long as it is available in a way that I can print it out and add it to

> tabletop resources.



Since there are presently four variations on bloodlines being

proposed--each of which have their merits--it might be the most intelligent

course to just put them into a completely separate document and put it out

into the world like that. That way it satisfies both the "keep things as

they are" crowd and still provides several options for the tweak-monkeys.



Gary

[Mark_Aurel]

What WOULD you all think about expanding all the efforts of the conversion
process into their own independant projects? For example, coming out with a
sort of Netbook of Blood Abilties, Netbook of Domain Actions, Netbook of
Realm Spells, etc...

I kind of like the gist of this - though I would suggest a somewhat different format or forum - it wasn't long ago that a Birthright E-Zine was being planned; I'm not sure what happened to that, but I think that perhaps a regular release of additional tidbit materials in a magazine-like format would be a better and more varied read, and one which it would be easier to maintain a uniform level of quality for, than taking 2623623 new blood abilities of varied quality, and a similar number of domain actions, etc. When I think of the word "netbook," I don't get good vibes - reading most of them, for me, gives me a similar feeling to what I imagine trying to find gems in a pile of dung would. Of course, they could've improved since last I looked.

[Birthright-L]

> I kind of like the gist of this - though I would suggest a somewhat different format or forum - it wasn`t long ago that a Birthright E-Zine was being planned; I`m not sure what happened to that, but I think that perhaps a regular release of additional tidbit materials in a magazine-like format would be a better and more varied read, and one which it would be easier to maintain a uniform level of quality for, than taking 2623623 new blood abilities of varied quality, and a similar number of domain actions, etc. When I think of the word "netbook," I don`t get good vibes - reading most of them, for me, gives me a similar feeling to what I imagine trying to find gems in a pile of dung would. Of course, they could`ve improved since last I looked.





Hmmm... interesting.

I personally have the opposite view.



It`s what you describe as the "magazine-like format" that would best be

avoided, I think. And to be honest, the terms you used "trying to find gems

in a pile of dung" would best describe how I have come to think of such

things. That is after all the point of the magazine-format isn`t it? To

put as much different material together as possible so that *everyone* can

get at least one thing out of it and so everyone must have each copy of each

magazine to get optimal use out of the supplemental material within.

Pushing raw data out to people should not be the goal of such a project nor

should forcing them to read/download/print material they don`t want.



I *hate* the whole process of trying to get your campaign organized by

assembling a collection of piecemeal rules that may or may not have been

written with an eye toward compatability with oneanother. The

"magazine-style" was a good analogy. If you want a particular blood

ability, you`d have to go through archives searching for which issue had the

particular blood ability for use in your campaign.



The point of the proposed `netbooks` is three fold: 1) they organize all

such relavent information together, 2) they limit the amount of information

added to your games to only those subjects which you wish to add, and 3) as

a collective whole that`s planned for early it`s made to be perfectly

compatable and consistent with itself and other such limited books.



I used netbooks as an anology, I`d rather use `expansion` but even this

isn`t quite right, becuase ideally I`d like these works to REPLACE the

original chapters in the BRCS rather that supplement them. No mess, no

cross-referencing here and there; hence #1, above.



#2 is equally important. If you want new blood abilities, you shouldn`t

have to filter through domain actions, alternate timelines, NPC

descriptions, etc. If you want to expand on Blood Abilities, you simply

pick up the Blood Abilities Expansion and this book overrides all

`less-complete` rules so there are no inconsitencies and cross-referencing.



#3 is actually kind of the definition of the idea I`m proposing. Your

"magazine-style" isn`t all that different than what we have now (which I

guess shouldn`t be surprising). Every so often people post new ideas,

rules, campaign ideas, and questions and someone wanting to add this

material to their campaign need only look through the archives to find what

they want -- they just have to filter through all the stuff they don`t. An

`Expansion` or `netbook` would have only the type of information they want.



The disadvantage you refer to, as far as having a Book of Blood Abilities

just completely deluded with so many Blood Abilities that would be hard to

find the good ones that would best be applicable to your campaigns can be

negated or reduced by intelligent design and foresight. Let`s use the

example of a Book of Bloodlines that contains 2,623,623 blood abilities, as

per your example.



That`s hard to filter through, yes. Initially, the first time. After that

you have only to jot down the numbers or names of the ones you wish to use.

That`s still considerably easier than reading through 2,623,623 blood

abilities along with an equal number of domain actions, etc to filter

through in a magazine-style format.



If the Blood Abilities were arranged in a logical layout with sections

referring to particular campaign styles, themes, or other suggestions, this

could limit how many blood abilities you have to look through. Most

importantly though might be people`s suggestions online. When someone wants

to start a campaign, it`s a rather simple to refer to your campaign format

as using Blood Abilities 4, 7, 20, and 42 rather than having to type out the

blood abilities or even refer to them as "Issue #15, page 8; Issue #15,

page 8; Issue #32, page 16; and Issue #51, page 4". I would definitely not

go through archives looking for these, but it`d be a simple matter to look

up #4,#7,#20,and #42 in a PDF, printed or otherwise, especially if the table

of contents included the range of blood ability number entries per page.



The `Expansion` method has over the `magazine-style` immense potential

advantages. Of course, in all fairness, I`m kind of comparing a

well-designed Expansion to a slip-shod e-zine, but I think this is actually

a fairly accurate assessment if not a fair one.



The `Expansion` provides for increased likihood of internal consistency,

consistency with other sources including and especially the BRCS (it`s meant

to be used in place of one of its chapters in many cases), the up-to-date

official rules all in one place (and how they mesh with unofficial ones),

allows the BR net community additional options in their games, and provides

for a common groundwork for discussing and understanding such options

(without having to acquire additional material or search through archives).

It provides additional game material only to those gamers wanting that

additional type of material for their games, and doesn`t provide material

for which they don`t.



Anyone who really doesn`t want to read through 2,623,623 blood abilities but

is just sure he wants more blood abilities in his game need only ask the BR

community which of the material they are using, and get a response like "7,

23, 80, 412, 913, 2005, and 4288012 might be useful to you" which is still a

whole lot easier than sending 8 blood ability descriptions to them or having

that person just take the next 8 blood abilities that happen to come out in

that month`s e-zine.



I perfectly understand your "finding gems in a pile of dung" analogy because

I`ve gone through similiar things when going through such things as the

netbook of feats. But I only had to do it once, and my games are a whole

lot better for it. And when I want to add more, I can always go back to the

netbook of feats for ideas. Having to flip through every Dragon magazine I

have though, is far more annoying.



-Lord Rahvin

[Mark_Aurel]

>I perfectly understand your "finding gems in a pile of dung" analogy because
I`ve gone through similiar things when going through such things as the
netbook of feats. But I only had to do it once, and my games are a whole
lot better for it. And when I want to add more, I can always go back to the
netbook of feats for ideas. Having to flip through every Dragon magazine I
have though, is far more annoying.

I understand your point here, but I think I should clarify what I meant a bit: I think it would be easier to maintain quality control if less amounts of material were released at any given point in time. The materials could be gathered up at a later time in a form of compendium once sufficient materials had been accumulated, but my point is that the most expedient form of release that'd also assure quality control would be picemeal, rather than either gathering up lots of sub-par material for a big initial release, or waiting for a long time to release something good.

Releasing it in a magazine format would just mean that you'd get more overall value out of it at once - i.e. making it more "worth" the download time for everyone. The format has at least as many advantages as the disadvantages you describe. While you may initially be looking for new feats, some of the ideas described in a new spell section or prestige class might be interesting.

[geeman]

At 06:04 AM 8/19/2003 +0200, Mark_Aurel wrote:



>

>I perfectly understand your "finding gems in a pile of

> dung" analogy because

> I`ve gone through similiar things when going through such things as the

> netbook of feats. But I only had to do it once, and my games are a whole

> lot better for it. And when I want to add more, I can always go back to the

> netbook of feats for ideas. Having to flip through every Dragon magazine I

> have though, is far more annoying.

>

> I understand your point here, but I think I should clarify what I meant

> a bit: I think it would be easier to maintain quality control if less

> amounts of material were released at any given point in time. The

> materials could be gathered up at a later time in a form of compendium

> once sufficient materials had been accumulated, but my point is that the

> most expedient form of release that`d also assure quality control would

> be picemeal, rather than either gathering up lots of sub-par material for

> a big initial release, or waiting for a long time to release something good.

>

> Releasing it in a magazine format would just mean that you`d get more

> overall value out of it at once - i.e. making it more "worth"

> the download time for everyone. The format has at least as many

> advantages as the disadvantages you describe. While you may initially be

> looking for new feats, some of the ideas described in a new spell section

> or prestige class might be interesting.



I think it may be possible to do a little bit of both. That is, issue some

sort of magazine formatted e-text (quarterly?) and then once there`s enough

material on a particular subject put them all into a particular "Book

of..." ebook. Since contributions are voluntary and we`re not running into

the same issues with copyright I think it should be doable to combine the

two processes in a way that isn`t available to most (paper) publishing.



Personally, I wouldn`t mind contributing the occasional piece to an e-zine

or whatever. I can`t really lock myself into anything at present, but many

of the posts and email sent to the lists/boards contain the germ of

articles that could be used in a publication, and those could be made the

basis for various expansion books.



Gary

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----

From: <lordrahvin@SOFTHOME.NET>

Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 10:15 PM





> It`s what you describe as the "magazine-like format" that would

> best be avoided, I think.



This is a silly limit on how information is distributed. As I recall, Ian

Hoskins

planned a website where people could offer submissions of ideas, adventures,

characters, and other goodies. Then an announcement could be sent here once

a month to tell us what had been posted to the site since the last

announcement.



Read what you want, ignore the rest, don`t even go to the site if you don`t

want to. One of the reasons I produced the Taelshore site I have was to put

out my campaign materials for people who were interested without posting all

of it to the site. Its just as easy for people who are interested to click

a link, while less of a burden on readers who have no interest.



Other list members have great websites. If someone made a commitment to

putting submissions up and posting a "what`s new" list, I say good for

everyone.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[geeman]

At 06:04 AM 8/19/2003 +0200, Mark_Aurel wrote:



>I understand your point here, but I think I should clarify what I meant a

>bit: I think it would be easier to maintain quality control if less

>amounts of material were released at any given point in time. The

>materials could be gathered up at a later time in a form of compendium

>once sufficient materials had been accumulated, but my point is that the

>most expedient form of release that`d also assure quality control would be

>picemeal, rather than either gathering up lots of sub-par material for a

>big initial release, or waiting for a long time to release something good.

>

>Releasing it in a magazine format would just mean that you`d get more

>overall value out of it at once - i.e. making it more "worth"

>the download time for everyone. The format has at least as many advantages

>as the disadvantages you describe. While you may initially be looking for

>new feats, some of the ideas described in a new spell section or prestige

>class might be interesting.



Maybe the most effective way of accomplishing both the goals of material

and expedience is to have an page on BR. net that was a sort of

e-zine/downloads page. On this page (which we could refer to by whatever

e-zine-like title we like) would be articles submitted to Arjan (or whoever

is to format and post them) and the page could have them with a little

annotation describing what it is the article covers. The "e-zine" for BR

could then be a sort of organic thing with updates going on at the

convenience of the contributors without the pressure of

deadlines. Articles could then be extrapolated into ebooks when sufficient

material is compiled and someone has the time and inclination to put them

together, and posted on a more "traditional" downloads page.



Probably the most likely version of such a thing would be people who submit

awnsheghlien or ersheghlien write ups, or variant creatures for BR. Each

of those could be an "article" on the "Birthright Magazine" page and when

enough of them are presented someone could compile them into a Blood

Enemies 2 (3, 4) text. That is, after all, how the Fiend Folio eventually

got written. In a similar manner, different bloodline proposals could get

submitted and eventually congealed into a "Book of Bloodlines" type

text. There might be enough bloodline proposals already to create such an

ebook. I know the BP stuff is in the neighborhood of 15k words.



Of course, I have very little web design experience--and would probably not

be able to contribute anything other than the occasional article--so this

may be impractical in some way I`m not really seeing since I would have to

do very little of the work involved with putting up such a page....



Gary