More Powers

[Mark_Aurel]

Essentially the whole Bloodline Point system was an extension of that basic
premise; that blood abilities should scale all the way up and and the way
down. In fiddling around with such things I found the minor, major and
great categories to be too broad a grouping in order to reflect the
permutations possible.

The way you made blood abilities customizable and scaling was the thing that I liked the most about your proposal. While I tend to agree with Rahvin that it isn't entirely apt to have all blood abilities scale equally in all directions, you nevertheless articulated one of the essential ideas and improvements made in 3e over previous editions - that of choice and customizability.

[geeman]

3 +0200, Mark_Aural wrote:



> You mean 100 ft +20 ft/bld, then 150 ft + 30 ft/bld, then 200 ft, then

> 250 ft, etc, right? I don`t see a good reason for not using the normal

> doubling rule here, if for no other reason than to avoid confusion.



I used the doubling effect ( 50 to 100 then 200 (then 400)) because it gets

one closer to the range of the standard Dimension Door spell is 400 ft + 40

ft per level sooner. Using 50 ft increments would require spending 7BP to

reach the power of the 4th level spell--too expensive comparted to other

enhancements.



>I think a slightly higher range for the base ability might be apt as well

>- some characters can practically jump that far (and that is without

>invoking any of the psionic feats for jumping far, which don`t belong in

>Birthright at all, unless you want a Matrixy feel to it).



Yeah, one could start it off at 100, or the power could kick in at the 3rd

BP spent on the base power. Or both. That would make sense since the 4th

level spell does have a "conditional use" based on access to shadows and a

more limited range, so it would balance pretty well, and could eliminate

the somewhat redundant AC dodge bonuses at the current 2nd and 3rd BP of

the base power.



> The way you made blood abilities customizable and scaling was the thing

> that I liked the most about your proposal. While I tend to agree with

> Rahvin that it isn`t entirely apt to have all blood abilities scale

> equally in all directions, you nevertheless articulated one of the

> essential ideas and improvements made in 3e over previous editions - that

> of choice and customizability.



Thanks. That was one of the overall goals. Nice to hear it worked out

that way.



Gary

[Ariadne]

Originally posted by Nightmare@Aug 15 2003, 08:33 AM
Option A: Add a new skill called: Use Blood Ability (or something to that effect). Each blood ability has a rank, which can be increased by spending points. Some blood abilities are considered automatic and does not require a check. Depending on the rank of the ability and the result of the check, the abilities result may vary greatly.

Option B: Consider the blood abilities to function like skills. You buy ranks in your blood abilities (those that are not considered automatic) and each time you wish to invoke a blood ability, you make a blood ability check. This check would something like 1D20 + Blood ability rank + bloodline score modifier.
The result depends on what the check is.

In the 3.5 Edition they want to "focus" on fewer, but more general skills. Wotc has killed several skills, like innuendo, read lips and intuite direction. Creating new skills for bloodlines (and even for evry blood ability its own) is in contrary to this. Further a rogue will be always better in his blood abilities than a "standard" fighter (with int 10 or less). IMO a bit unfair...

[Birthright-L]

blood abilities customizable and scaling was the thing that I liked the most about your proposal. While I tend to agree with Rahvin that it isn`t entirely apt to have all blood abilities scale equally in all directions, you nevertheless articulated one of the essential ideas and improvements made in 3e over previous editions - that of choice and customizability.





I want to note here that my objection was more to the objection to the

nature of taking such a poll rather than to the actual system proposed. My

vote`s for the BP system all the way, and I definitely think we should all

feel free to collaberate on new blood abilities, enhancements, and effects

rather than just being limited to what`s in the original rulebooks.



But I still hold my two particular examples; I don`t think we need a "great"

version of heightened perception (though the option of just continually

adding more enhancements seems desireable). Likewise, I don`t like the idea

of a minor version of Travel. Gary suggested this would be treated as

improved marching ability, increased movement rate, and so on, and these

just sound like two entirely different powers to me.



-Lord Rahvin

[Osprey]

But I still hold my two particular examples; I don`t think we need a "great"
version of heightened perception (though the option of just continually
adding more enhancements seems desireable). Likewise, I don`t like the idea
of a minor version of Travel. Gary suggested this would be treated as
improved marching ability, increased movement rate, and so on, and these
just sound like two entirely different powers to me.

I'd have to agree with this one. Anyone who's used monks in detailed tactical comabat knows how potent increased movement can be - hardly a minor effect, IMO.

Travel was always meant to be a form of long-distance Teleport under specific conditions dictated by one's Bloodline Derivation. Trying to make weaker versions of this (like Dimension Door) under those same conditions would render the power near-useless.

Using the above example, I think it's clear that there are some powers that are worked out pretty well as they now stand. Not everything needs endless variations and scales of power. The only variable in Travel was how many times per week it could be used based on character level. Spending BP's for extra uses seems fine, but I think the conditional limiters (like bodies of water for Masela, roads for Brenna, etc.) should remain. I've always thought that was a distinctly neat aspect of that power.

In general, however, I do agree that many of the powers could be scaled to various levels for most scions, and I do like the idea of a system that's opened up for larger variety and customization. I agree that this is in keeping with the 3e changes and modular approach (and the improvements in 3e were the reason I got back into D&D, in all honesty).

Personally, I have no problems with Heightened Senses gaining more range, accuity (adding to Spot / Listen checks, for example), etc. as BP are spent (or as a Great version of the power, depending on the final system adopted). I always thought that classifying the power as a Major ability was a bit harsh, considering that nonhumans get things like Darkvision or acute senses without an ECL adjustment (in addition to other racial abilites).

-Osprey

[geeman]

3 +0200, Osprey wrote:



>Travel was always meant to be a form of long-distance Teleport under

>specific conditions dictated by one`s Bloodline Derivation.



It was but I think that`s mostly because there was no minor or major

aspects of the blood ability. I`m not 100% happy with my BP write up for

that particular blood ability, but in general I like the idea that "Travel"

is more of a theme of the blood ability having to do with that term in its

more general definition rather than the specific ability to teleport under

particular conditions. In order to reflect that kind of thing it needs to

scale down to more mundane things like movement rate or whatever.



Very few of the blood abilities scale up and down, but there`s nothing

particularly exclusive about any of them. Scaling some of them all the way

up and down was a bit brain-bruising in a couple of cases, but it turned

out they were all doable.



Thematically, there`s also an issue with the more delineated nature of BP

in that giving a character who would normally have a minor and a major

blood ability could mean giving them as many as 9 BP. That is, such a

scion would have 9 BP dolled out to him rather than Power A and Power

B. Without scaling the powers up there`s the possibility of a scion having

as many as 9 blood abilities. I don`t think it`d really be a problem for

such a character to exist, but it was demonstrably different from the

original text, so scaled blood abilities means a limitation can be set on

the number of blood abilities a scion might have without having him "waste"

BP because his maximum number of them has been reached. A carefully

designed system could deal with this issue, but I found the scaling up

easier to deal with than making sure the table from which BP were assigned

was exact.



>Trying to make weaker versions of this (like Dimension Door) under those

>same conditions would render the power near-useless.



I`d use the example of the Animal Affinity blood ability (one of the more

interesting ones IMO) in which the power of the ability scales up in two

regards; locating/communicating with the target animal, and gaining their

aid. The powers scale up to the point that he can see through their eyes

and speak with them directly, even change into the shape of the totem

animal eventually.



> Using the above example, I think it`s clear that there are some powers

> that are worked out pretty well as they now stand. Not everything needs

> endless variations and scales of power. The only variable in Travel was

> how many times per week it could be used based on character

> level. Spending BP`s for extra uses seems fine, but I think the

> conditional limiters (like bodies of water for Masela, roads for Brenna,

> etc.) should remain. I`ve always thought that was a distinctly neat

> aspect of that power.



I`d definitely agree with that. Those conditions were as much

characterizations as limitations, and as such doubly cool. Gotta keep the

limitations.



>Personally, I have no problems with Heightened Senses gaining more range,

>accuity (adding to Spot / Listen checks, for example), etc. as BP are

>spent (or as a Great version of the power, depending on the final system

>adopted). I always thought that classifying the power as a Major ability

>was a bit harsh, considering that nonhumans get things like Darkvision or

>acute senses without an ECL adjustment (in addition to other racial abilites).



I think that`s an accurate assessment. I found that in several cases I had

to add more "active" powers to that blood ability in order to scale it

up. That is, a character who got low-light vision eventually got a bonus

to dex or something, making the power quite different from the original

version. However, I don`t think it was very different than the scale of

the Animal Affinity blood ability what goes from sensing and empathizing

with animals to shapeshifting into them.



Gary

[RaspK_FOG]

TO Gary: Really cool! Very nice proposals overall.

Say, people, do you think we should start such a poll? I am in!

[Cinder]

Hey Gary, those are pretty slick ideas. The BP system would definitely offer the joy of selection to the players, allowing them to further customize (options are good&#33. To your "potential" issue of a character having too many powers....

Thematically, there`s also an issue with the more delineated nature of BP in that giving a character who would normally have a minor and a major blood ability could mean giving them as many as 9 BP. That is, such a scion would have 9 BP dolled out to him rather than Power A and Power B. Without scaling the powers up there`s the possibility of a scion having as many as 9 blood abilities. I don`t think it`d really be a problem for such a character to exist, but it was demonstrably different from the original text, so scaled blood abilities means a limitation can be set on the number of blood abilities a scion might have without having him "waste" BP because his maximum number of them has been reached. A carefully designed system could deal with this issue, but I found the scaling up easier to deal with than making sure the table from which BP were assigned was exact.

I think this issue can be solved by simply adding an initial cost. The gain the power an initial points value must be paid, for example, to gain the first step in the Shadow Jaunt ability the character must pay 3 points, not just one. Subsiquent increments are only 1 point making it more likely that players will increase the potency of a few powers rather than purchase a whole bunch. This eliminates the necessity of placing arbitrary limits on the numbers of powers. More potent powers could have a higher initial cost making them less of an "automatic" consideration (If you REALLY want this good power you must pay more for it). Likewise, less potent powers could have lower initial costs making them (possibly) more common. Another variable could be adjusting the cost of each power increment. These steps could help regulate the powers and add depth as well, though they will add some complexity to the system. Though I don't believe adding an initial cost would complicate things really at all..... What do you guys think? Geeman?

I definitely think a poll is in order.... I will start it (if I'm capable...)

[Cinder]

Well I started the poll, it's real basic and doesn't cover Geeman's suggestions. I thought we should see where we stand with the basic ideas first before pushing into voting on the mechanics. Well, what are you waiting for? VOTE!

[Cinder]

Hey GEEMAN, what do you think of my suggestion (2 posts up)? What about the rest of you?