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  1. #1
    Birthright Developer Raesene Andu's Avatar
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    Did we ever decide on a final table for the population/level for the domain rules? I ask because I'm about to work out the populations of every nation in Anuire for the Atlas, and wanted to make sure it fits with the rulebook before I do it.

    Personally, I'm in favour of the following....

    POPULATION CHART

    0-----0
    1-----2000
    2-----8000
    3-----18000
    4-----32000
    5-----50000
    6-----72000
    7-----98000
    8-----128000
    9-----162000
    10----200000

    That is roughly double the original and would fit in well with the size of the major cities (Ilien, 70000, Ilien province 98000+; Endier 50,000, Endier
    province 72,000+) and raise the population of Anuire to a slightly more reasonable level (roughly 3.1 million people as compared to 1.5 million under the current chart, not including Awnsheghlien and goblin realms).

    If you want to use this system then great, but if not then can you let me know soon, before I start editing everything.
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    Well, this has been the subject of debate before - for various reasons, I'm in favor of increasing the population level overall as well, as much of what is in the setting books doesn't quite make sense demographically.

    As far as I can tell, the table you have there is based on 2(x2); the formula I currently have in the revision is 2 x the sum of all province levels (1, 3, 6, 10, etc). This increases population in lower-level provinces somewhat, without similarly affecting higher-level provinces relatively equally as much.

    I'd suggest you post this in the Atlas boards and get an opinion there as well. I wouldn't mind using the table you suggest at all (it doesn't have much rules impact anyway, but it does have story impact), but it's good to know your back is being covered. The population levels suggested by the Rulebook puts Anuire at less than the population density of medieval Scandinavia (medieval Norway was about half the size of Anuire, with a population of about 1-1.5 million). The cities and armies of Cerilia are also unusually large if the current demographic numbers are used as a basis, whilst an "empire" of 3 million citizens doesn't seem very impressive at all.

    http://www.io.com/~sjohn/demog.htm - this is an excellent resource for a quick overview of some pertinent issues.

    If no one here or on the Atlas team has any strong objections, I see nothing wrong with using your numbers.
    Jan E. Juvstad.

  3. #3
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    http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?...&threadid=72206

    That thread also has some interesting discussion on demographics in general (though, in a way, in the opposite direction of Cerilia's), if that holds any interest for you.
    Jan E. Juvstad.

  4. #4
    Birthright Developer Raesene Andu's Avatar
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    My table is based on this rough formula.
    0 = 0
    1 = 1 x 2000 = 2000
    2 = 2 x 4000 = 8000
    3 = 3 x 6000 = 18000

    Either way is good, but I agree with you in that Anuire (and indeed all of Cerilia) needs a population boost.

    Should also point out that under the system I have for working out population, the MINIMUM population for Anuire is 3.15 million. So for a realm like Roesone, the population can be anything from 130,000 to 228,000 and for Ghoere (the most population nation in Anuire) the population range will be 344,000 to 524,000 which is a significant increase over the old 128,000 - 207,000 range.

    Now assuming that Ghoere is 6,600 square miles in size (worked out very roughly at 60 miles wide, 110 miles long), and assuming an average population of 434,000 people, then that comes in at roughly 65 people per square mile, which if you compare to real world demographics (I have that page you suggested bookmarked by the way) is still a little low. However, Ghoere may not be quite that large and it does have a few hills, a swamp and the threat from the Spiderfell to keep people away.

    Looking at the armies vs. population, a kingdom's standing army should be less than 2% of the population. Now assuming 200 men per unit and a population of 434,000, then Ghoere has a standing army of 3,600 men (plus 2000 mercenaries if needed) or 0.83 of the population. If you add the mercenaires then it comes to 1.3% of the population which is about spot on for the medieval/early renaissence type culture IMO.

    The maximum sized army a kingdom could raise (assuming a major war to fight off the Gorgon or something like that) should be around 10-15% of the total population, so around 43-65,000 soldiers for Ghoere. Of course, paying for that many troops is going to be difficult without good finances. A pet guilder and lots of trade routes AND a pet temple with good tithes AND a lot of levies would be needed to get even close to muster that many troops. However, when working out the troop numbers for some of the wilder lands, I've assumed that the cost of maintaining these troops is minimul or non-existant, especially with goblins and other monster regions, so realm like the Spiderfell (which as a population of 13,750 goblins + innummerable spiders) can support at least 10 units of goblins (15% of the population) all of the time, which would help explain why the Spider has kept control of the forest for so long when surrounded by enemies. In fact, I've given him a total of 20 units (10 goblin, 10 giant spider) that can be maintain free of charge when inside his land. As they don't trade for goods for weapons etc, and all the goblins and spiders in the forest are his loyal followers they don't need money, just food etc which can be supplied by the rest of the population, then his units don't need maintenance. Of course, once outside the Spiderfell there is a maintenance cost, but is generally pillaged from the occupied lands.

    Anyway I'm getting a bit off topic here. The question to everyone is, should we use this table? If yes, then I'll get to work of some demographics stuff I have planned. If no, then please explain why and what you would like to see instead.
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    Birthright Developer Raesene Andu's Avatar
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    Oh and if you use the system on this page http://www.rpglibrary.org/utils/meddemog/ for Ghoere, assuming 17094 square km (conversion is square miles x 2.59) and use Abundant Arable Land (40 people /square km) you get a total population for Ghoere of 683,760 people.

    But, if you fix the population number so that you get Ghoere's population to around 434,000 (the average I worked out above) then can use the rest of the page to calculate that Ghore has a livestock population of near 1 million (actually 650,000 fowl such as chickens and geese & 300,000 livestock like cattle and sheep). There would be approximately 9000 intinerent workers, 386,000 villagers (in 859 villages), 26,038 townsfolk (in 6 large towns), and 13,019 cityfolk (in 2 cities, although I think Bhalaene is the only real city in Ghoere IMO). The page also suggest that there would be 11 castles in Ghoere, although I think for BR this would include fortifications of all types, so not all would be in the hands of Gavin Tael.

    Some interesting info I think, useful if you want to set down a bit more about a kingdom.
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    Site Moderator Ariadne's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Raesene Andu@Aug 11 2003, 08:16 AM
    POPULATION CHART

    0-----0
    1-----2000
    2-----8000
    3-----18000
    4-----32000
    5-----50000
    6-----72000
    7-----98000
    8-----128000
    9-----162000
    10----200000
    I think, this population chart fits very good into the setting and it is somehow straight (the old one seems to be nearly totaly random)...
    May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!

  7. #7
    Site Moderator Fearless_Leader's Avatar
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    I agree that this new table is a vast improvement over the one in the 2nd Edition rulebook.

  8. #8
    Birthright Developer Raesene Andu's Avatar
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    OK, if everyone is agreed, then we can move on. Below is a list of average populations for every realm in Anuire and Khinasi.
    (Note: These are average only, can be higher or lower than this).


    ANUIRE

    Aerenwe...........227,000
    Alamie..............185,000
    Avanil...............417,000
    Baruk-Azhik......193,000
    Boeruine...........405,000
    Brosengae........123,000
    Cariele..............147,000
    Chimaeron........59,000
    Coeranys..........171,000
    Dhoesone.........156,000
    Diemed.............245,000
    Elinie.................175,000
    Endier................85,000
    Five Peaks.........175,000
    Ghoere...............434,000
    Gorgon’s Crown..233,000
    Ilien....................113,000
    Imperial City.......135,000
    Markazor............175,000
    Medoere.............79,000
    Mhoried..............290,000
    Mieres................173,000
    Mur-Kilad............86,000
    Osoerde............156,000
    Rhuobhe............13,000
    Roesone............179,000
    Sielwode............253,000
    Spiderfell............13,000
    Taeghas.............216,000
    Talinie................155,000
    Thurazor...........158,000
    Tuornen............200,000
    Tuarhievel.........215,000

    TOTAL...............6,039,000


    KHINASI

    Aftane...............248,000
    Ariya..................179,000
    Basilisk...............10,000
    Binsada..............187,000
    Black Spear Tribes..109,000
    Direwood............18,000
    Djafra..................342,000
    Ghamoura...........147,000
    Innishiere............108,000
    Iron Hand Tribes..176,000
    Khourane.............215,000
    Kozlovnyy............194,000
    Lamia...................99,000
    Magian................127,000
    Mairada...............123,000
    Maze of Maalvar...17,000
    Merasaf................182,000
    Mesire..................86,000
    Min Dhousai.........219,000
    Mour el-Sirad.......26,000
    Rhuannach..........81,000
    Sendoure............151,000
    Serpent’s Isle......89,000
    Sphinx.................152,000
    Suiriene...............155,000
    Tarvan Waste......32,000
    Zikala...................203,000

    TOTAL..................3,675,000

    Note: The Imperial City is a special case because it is not actually a province, but a city. I have sort of assumed that when a province changes over to 10/0 province then it becomes both a city and a province. So say Ilien changed to a 10/0 then you would get two provinces, one a 10/0 city and the other a 6/0 or 7/0 province, just as in Avanil you have a 7/0 province called Anuire and then you have the Imperial City itself.

    Any thoughts on this idea?
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  9. #9
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    I already wrote in some "urban province" rules in the BRCS playtest, though they aren't yet at the level I'd like them to be.

    Basically, urban provinces are supposed to follow the following special case rules:
    1. They must maintain a trade route at all times, or they will starve. Some rules about granaries and food reserves seems appropriate here as well. Possibly special rules for sieges and storming cities as well.
    2. They are considered a separate province from the surrounding one for purposes of population-based effects, but a part of the same province for area-based effects - plague vs earthquake, for instance.
    3. They don't have sources.


    Apart from that, they're considered similar to regular provinces. I think it would be very appropriate if some cities elsewhere changed to the same status - most noticeably the "city-states of the sun," like Ariya and the others - it'd make those cities seem more special, and make the system more consistent.

    I also wouldn't mind if the Imperial City's population got upped a bit more to reflect its level better - even well into the middle ages, Constantinople remained a huge city.

    For that matter, 6 million is a much better population count - puts Anuire on roughly half of France's medieval level (or less than half), which is about right, IMO.
    Jan E. Juvstad.

  10. #10
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    :huh:

    Is that mean that I must rewrite the population entry in my realm outlines that I've done so far?
    </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The thane will eventually give her realm to the Boeruine family. Now, it&#39;s just a matter of months...</td></tr></table><span class='signature'>
    Count Mordhekai Demeter, Lord of Winter&#39;s Deep
    and protector of Talinie

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