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Thread: Variant Rules For The Brcs
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08-20-2003, 03:18 PM #11Well, all in all, it is not a lot different from RPing XP awards, and ad hoc rules the day in these cases... Except if you are able to assign XP awards for the ammount of success in these same cases! My DM could do that with pretty much the same ease he would have had he looked down a table!
Theoritecally, though, XP awards could be given in regard to how well you handled the situation, and assigning it a "virtual" CR. For example, if fighting with the enemy country and winning against it brilliantly would give you ___ XP, then solving the matter without sheer force but diplomacy should give a portion of the same number, proportionally large according to the success achieved by your players
Osprey
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08-20-2003, 10:36 PM #12
Sorry for being vague/using elglish wrongfully... More or less, I meant to say that most people assign XP awards for RPing ad hoc, not that it's the best solution. In my ways, RPing and Domain Actions are awarded according to the solution I mentioned, that is, according to the level of success the domain action proves to be in regard to the challenge itself. If the success is complete and unquestionable, then full XP should be awarded. If the problem is more delicate, I really don't know: individual situations need individualised thinking, except if you manage to tak eall possible situations into account and think them over...
If the design team can cope up with it, it would be great, and the should be congratulated, but such a success is really tough a noogie, isn't it?
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08-22-2003, 09:19 AM #13
In my mind it really doesn't matter WHY something made it into the BR setting, only that it did. I'm highly sceptical about changing basic stuff, and actually not caring WHY it is changed (wheter to be more 3Eish or to fit someones canception of how the writers REALLY intended BR to be).
Take healing magic for example; In BR, only clerics can heal. There is nothing more to say on the subject. If some players don't like this, too bad, they can make their own house rules. If DnD 3E gives healing magic to bards, change it, because they do not in BR.
Bloodlines are an add-on system, so it stays that way. Bloodlines come in tainted, minor, major, great, and true variants. There are minor, major and great blood abilities.
Druids are priests of Erik. They're not "druids" in the 3E sense that worships nature. No, they are priests of Erik. Elves can't be druids, because druids are priests of Erik. There are no elven gods and no elven clerics, paladins (or druids).
I could go on...but I have made my point. To me, the only worthwile BRCS is one that stays true to the original. And I'm not talking about the typos, the inconsistencies or the plain crappy stuff. I'm talking about the important stuff, the things that gave flavor to the world of BR.
When that is said, I'll be the first to admitt that there are much to be gained from playing with the setting a little. I like to do so, and have included elven druids, clerics of Erik, and worse things beside in my many BR campaigns over the years. So have other people, and some of these ideas are SOOO good that they desreve to be included in the BRCS. But NOT as part of the main body of rules!
Use sidebars instead, or "optional rules" or entire appendixes to present variant rules. I'd love to se the "elven druid" as a optional rule, or "he lerics of Erik and their conflict with their nomadic druid brethren" sidebar, or the Bloodlines by points" appendix.
Cheers
Bjørn
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08-22-2003, 10:01 PM #14
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This seems to be an acceptable compromise. The arguments on 3e
BR are at the stage where I usually delete the thread as it comes in -
I`m not saying that there aren`t some really brilliant ideas in amongst
them, of the few that I`ve read, there has been some really well thought
out ideas and arguments, but after a very short while it just didn`t
have the feel of the BR I had come to enjoy. Personally I don`t feel
that 3e suits BR. I enjoy playing 3e in other campaigns, but the BR
that I run (even with its little house rules), I`ll keep to 2e for the
moment.
A BRCS that has the non-standard BR items as either side bars or
as an appendix would be what I`d prefer to see.
<Ok, so this is just a "me too!" post, but it`s a while since the
statement has been put clearly.>
Regards,
Doyle.
-----Original Message-----
Green Knight wrote:
In my mind it really doesn`t matter WHY something made it into the BR
setting, only that it did. I`m highly sceptical about changing basic
stuff, and actually not caring WHY it is changed (wheter to be more
3Eish or to fit someones canception of how the writers REALLY intended
BR to be).
Take healing magic for example; In BR, only clerics can heal. There is
nothing more to say on the subject. If some players don`t like this, too
bad, they can make their own house rules. If DnD 3E gives healing magic
to bards, change it, because they do not in BR.
Bloodlines are an add-on system, so it stays that way. Bloodlines come
in tainted, minor, major, great, and true variants. There are minor,
major and great blood abilities.
Druids are priests of Erik. They`re not "druids" in the 3E
sense that worships nature. No, they are priests of Erik. Elves can`t be
druids, because druids are priests of Erik. There are no elven gods and
no elven clerics, paladins (or druids).
I could go on...but I have made my point. To me, the only worthwile
BRCS is one that stays true to the original. And I`m not talking about
the typos, the inconsistencies or the plain crappy stuff. I`m talking
about the important stuff, the things that gave flavor to the world of
BR.
When that is said, I`ll be the first to admitt that there are much to
be gained from playing with the setting a little. I like to do so, and
have included elven druids, clerics of Erik, and worse things beside in
my many BR campaigns over the years. So have other people, and some of
these ideas are SOOO good that they desreve to be included in the BRCS.
But NOT as part of the main body of rules!
Use sidebars instead, or "optional rules" or entire
appendixes to present variant rules. I`d love to se the "elven
druid" as a optional rule, or "he lerics of Erik and their
conflict with their nomadic druid brethren" sidebar, or the
Bloodlines by points" appendix.
Cheers
BjørnDoyle
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08-23-2003, 01:04 AM #15
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Originally posted by Osprey@Aug 20 2003, 10:18 AM
Well, all in all, it is not a lot different from RPing XP awards, and ad hoc rules the day in these cases... Except if you are able to assign XP awards for the ammount of success in these same cases! My DM could do that with pretty much the same ease he would have had he looked down a table!
Theoritecally, though, XP awards could be given in regard to how well you handled the situation, and assigning it a "virtual" CR. For example, if fighting with the enemy country and winning against it brilliantly would give you ___ XP, then solving the matter without sheer force but diplomacy should give a portion of the same number, proportionally large according to the success achieved by your players
Osprey
Variant
Award experience for successful domain actions. This method is of the most benefit to a PBEM or domain based game. The regent gains experience as if it was an even CR encounter, that is his character level is equal to the CR. Modify the CR based upon the modified DC of the domain action. On a successful action against DC 15 the CR for the experience award is equal to the regent’s character level, modify this by 1 for every 2 modifiers to the DC. If the modified DC is 17, the regent gains experience equivalent to a CR of 2, if the modified DC is 13 the regent gains experience equivalent to a CR ½ encounter. For example a 5th level regent successfully accomplishes a domain action with a CR of 15, he would receive 1,500 experience points, if the DC was reduced to 9 he would only receive 500 experience points (an effective CR 2), if the DC was increased to 19 he would receive 3,000 experience points. Greater challenges gain greater rewards.Duane Eggert
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08-24-2003, 08:13 PM #16Variant
Award experience for successful domain actions. This method is of the most benefit to a PBEM or domain based game. The regent gains experience as if it was an even CR encounter, that is his character level is equal to the CR. Modify the CR based upon the modified DC of the domain action. On a successful action against DC 15 the CR for the experience award is equal to the regent’s character level, modify this by 1 for every 2 modifiers to the DC. If the modified DC is 17, the regent gains experience equivalent to a CR of 2, if the modified DC is 13 the regent gains experience equivalent to a CR ½ encounter. For example a 5th level regent successfully accomplishes a domain action with a CR of 15, he would receive 1,500 experience points, if the DC was reduced to 9 he would only receive 500 experience points (an effective CR 2), if the DC was increased to 19 he would receive 3,000 experience points. Greater challenges gain greater rewards.
Thus, in your system the good rulers (those with a high rate of success) are those who use their RP to lower the DC, yet the best rulers advance the slowest! How does that make sense?
Osprey
Hmmm - wait - you are talking about the final DC, modified by skill synergies, holdings, and RP expenditures, right? Or are you meaning the base DC as the xp award with the actual d20 roll modified by the conditionals? My understanding is that you meant the first option, yeah?
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08-24-2003, 08:56 PM #17
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> Hmmm...I have a hangup with xp awards based so heavily on lucky dice rolls. It says the regent who uses RP to aid domain actions gets little to no XP for succeeding at them. I feel that good strategies deserve xp awards, even if the outcome is nearly certain. It`s the smart players who win in the political arena, rarely the big gamblers. If you`re "average" DC for a political action is 15, you will fail 3 out of 4 times. What decent regent is willing to rule by those odds when he has Rp to burn?
> Thus, in your system the good rulers (those with a high rate of success) are those who use their RP to lower the DC, yet the best rulers advance the slowest! How does that make sense?
Rather that assigning XP based on successful domain actions, I think it
might be wiser to assign XP based on the successful resolution of random
events. This seems to be a far more "personal" area of regent-control,
while offering the greatest number of possible methods of execution, and
giving players control over just how much risk to take in regards to gaining
XP. Some random events could be inserted for the specific use of granting
XP to regents, or their lieutenants, or whatever. Most importantly, random
events could be changed over time by a DM willing to do it, and can even be
adapted to specific characters, realms, and story plots whereas arbitrary
awards for general domain actions, really can`t.
--
Something to consider (not for the BRCS):
Another completely different aspect I used for an old house game that was
run in the style of PbeM was that I gave an Advancement Value to all the
domain actions. Most Domain Actions had an Advancement Value of 1, others
such as Declare War and Diplomacy had as much as 3. Because of the nature
of the way the story unfolded, there were a few times when these Advancement
Values had temporary modifiers such as when Rhoesone and Ghoere both got +1
Advancement for Declare War and Contest domain actions. These values were
used rather simply: At the end of each turn you add up all your Advancement
Values together for that turn. Roll a d20. If the result is less than your
total Advancement Value, you level up. It was really simplistic, but at the
time it satisfied my criteria of awarding greater competency to more
personal or influential domain actions without having to keep track of
frivilous values (like ExP) that weren`t all that useful at the domain
level. Generally speaking, domain actions that primarily effected your
domain were worth less than domain actions that effected other domains, and
thus got you more in the web of politics in the world and the story plots of
the game. My only test for this worked really well; but it would have
worked better if character level (Advancement Level) had more uses.
-Lord RahvinNOTE: Messages posted by Birthright-L are automatically inserted posts originating from the mailing list linked to the forum.
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08-24-2003, 10:30 PM #18
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Originally posted by Osprey@Aug 24 2003, 03:13 PM
Variant
Award experience for successful domain actions. This method is of the most benefit to a PBEM or domain based game. The regent gains experience as if it was an even CR encounter, that is his character level is equal to the CR. Modify the CR based upon the modified DC of the domain action. On a successful action against DC 15 the CR for the experience award is equal to the regent’s character level, modify this by 1 for every 2 modifiers to the DC. If the modified DC is 17, the regent gains experience equivalent to a CR of 2, if the modified DC is 13 the regent gains experience equivalent to a CR ½ encounter. For example a 5th level regent successfully accomplishes a domain action with a CR of 15, he would receive 1,500 experience points, if the DC was reduced to 9 he would only receive 500 experience points (an effective CR 2), if the DC was increased to 19 he would receive 3,000 experience points. Greater challenges gain greater rewards.
Thus, in your system the good rulers (those with a high rate of success) are those who use their RP to lower the DC, yet the best rulers advance the slowest! How does that make sense?
Osprey
Hmmm - wait - you are talking about the final DC, modified by skill synergies, holdings, and RP expenditures, right? Or are you meaning the base DC as the xp award with the actual d20 roll modified by the conditionals? My understanding is that you meant the first option, yeah?
True, the regent who modifies the result such that the success of the action is almost automatic would gain very little experience. This was by design, because he would have reduced the challenge of the action but exerting his "influence". If it is not much of a challenge then there should not be much of a reward. This equates fairly well with the method that exp are awarded in the adventuring arena, if it is "too easy" then the character gains very little. There has to be a challenge and the greater the challenge that is overcome the greater are the rewards gained.Duane Eggert
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08-24-2003, 11:01 PM #19True, the regent who modifies the result such that the success of the action is almost automatic would gain very little experience. This was by design, because he would have reduced the challenge of the action but exerting his "influence". If it is not much of a challenge then there should not be much of a reward. This equates fairly well with the method that exp are awarded in the adventuring arena, if it is "too easy" then the character gains very little. There has to be a challenge and the greater the challenge that is overcome the greater are the rewards gained.
Great challenges can be overcome in seemingly effortless ways by the proper application of strategy and technique. But is nothing learned, no skills improved or refined through such an approach?
In truth, failure often teaches as much as (or more than) success. Unfortunately, D&D doesn't operate on this principle, so I'm struggling to find some sort of compromise between reality and the D&D xp system. Part of that evolved into a "practice makes perfect" idea - do something correctly, and you improve the proper skills through repetition of right application.
I don't know - I'm still working on a happier solution. Maybe in the end the looser role-playing awards do work better. Must ponder this...
Osprey
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08-25-2003, 02:01 AM #20
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> I agree with the principle that greater challenge equals greater reward, only I don`t think the single roll of a d20 adequately represents a PC overcoming a challenge. I think intelligent approaches to a challenging problem are worthy of great reward, yet such a system rewards the foolish risk-taker who gets lucky. Is this the character who deserves to level up?
>
> Great challenges can be overcome in seemingly effortless ways by the proper application of strategy and technique. But is nothing learned, no skills improved or refined through such an approach?
>
> In truth, failure often teaches as much as (or more than) success. Unfortunately, D&D doesn`t operate on this principle, so I`m struggling to find some sort of compromise between reality and the D&D xp system. Part of that evolved into a "practice makes perfect" idea - do something correctly, and you improve the proper skills through repetition of right application.
>
> I don`t know - I`m still working on a happier solution. Maybe in the end the looser role-playing awards do work better. Must ponder this...
> Osprey
I agree with Irdegman`s analysis of the way experience works in this case,
though I also agree with the quoted statements above. What your looking for
is some kind of personal advancement that ties at the domain level. That`s
great, but it`s not necessarily Exp (although it can be). Personally, I see
bloodline as a far more significant value for personal advancement at the
domain level.
I`ve already suggested one method I used in an old campaign for advancing a
regent`s level without bothering with experience awards at all. Experience
is a very specific system that awards a particular behavior in a particular
way, that doesn`t lend itself very well to domain actions.
Two other options I was going to use for a campaign I was setting up (but I
never got around to it because that campaign was scapped) were what I termed
the Quest and Agenda methods.
The Quest method basically evolved from my disatisfaction from the way my
first attempt at a PbeM ran. Everyone did their own thing in a sort of
haphazard fashion, some people never interacted with others, and everyone
was off on their own little mini-games. Thus, I realized, as cool as it is,
it`s not a good idea to have a campaign without a plot no matter how well
its game mechancis may lend itself out. Thus, I decided to incorporate the
Quest system which basically just set certain "story goals" for the campaign
on a list. When these goals are met, the player gets an Exp and RP award.
This list would follow a certain natural theme, and the idea was that if
they reacted to the first couple of major events, and performed domain
actions that followed up on those events logically, the final result would
be a personal battle between a source mage and the regents wherein they
would get a chance to use all those Exp they`ve been collecting.
The Agenda method was basically inspired from a game called Paranoia, and I
like this one best but it`s the least thoughtout at the moment. Basically,
every domain has an agenda that`s generated along with the domain, and by
following that agenda and keeping it secret from others the character gains
certain agenda awards and Exp. (The agenda awards were just colorful badges
like "bodyguards," "a festival," or the PC favorite, "new toys!" These
agenda awards would be broken up into primary, secondary, and tertiary, and
would usually involve preventing other regents` particular actions (and
perhaps Agendas) rather than performing certain actions. I`ve also
considered Minor Agendas that PCs could work toward secretly, and announce
after they`ve accomplished it for a gobble of RP, military units, or
automatic Rule actions. I should get back to developing this system. I
recall really liking it when I was first brainstorming it...
-Lord RahvinNOTE: Messages posted by Birthright-L are automatically inserted posts originating from the mailing list linked to the forum.
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