Finding Sources Without Scry Skill

[CMonkey]

4) Monks have finally been powered down

I'm afraid I agree with mark here, without OA (and even then...) monks are/were a very weak class. And this too is from actual experience.

CM.

[Mark_Aurel]

Not wanting to insult anyone, but monks were too much... the funniest thing you can do, though, to a particularly looking-his-nose-down-at-you monk of at least 20th level is to bind them in a magic circle; LOL. It is personal experience that makes me speak: the various feats that were introduced for the monk (mostly; with Wisdom prerequisites...) were TOO good. Another good point is the evening of their number of attacks per round.

Why would you want to insult anyone - just because the experience of other players (indeed, the great majority of other players, if ENWorld threads on this subject are any indication) have the opposite opinion of yours in terms of the power level of monks?

There are a lot of reasons why monks are a fairly weak class:
- They rely on a lot of ability scores. They "need" a high Dex, a high Wis, a high Str, a high Con - and a high Int is also very good for them, with their class skill list. Most other classes can focus on a smaller range of ability scores (wizard - Int; fighter/barbarian - Str/Con; rogue - Dex/Int, etc).
- Their combat abilities are or were fairly poor overall. They don't come near the effectiveness of fighters, barbarians, or rogues in melee, generally speaking. Now, with DRs generally being lower than they were, monks may be somewhat more useful in a few cases.
- They suffer a bit from "jack-of-all-trades-ism;" they're decent, or potentially decent, at a lot of things, and can occasionally fill in for other roles in a party, but not do anywhere near as good a job as the rogue or fighter would, of course.
- The main niche for monks is basically the ability to survive. They can run away from encounters quicker than anyone (remember, they don't have to outrun the monster, just their tank fighter companion), they generally have the best saves, and they have a fair share of class abilities that further improve on this; their skills can also help them out.

What this amounts to is generally a hard-to-play class with little actual "weight" in most scenarios. It's not a good frontline class, it's not a spellcaster, several other classes are better skill users, it's not a support class. What the monk does is survive, and that can annoy a lot of people - "hey, you didn't slay a single monster in this dungeon, but you're the only one of us that walks out alive? not fair!!!"

Of course, if you just stare yourself blind at the inarguably huge list of class abilities granted to monks, you might miss the bigger picture - that those class abilities are generally less useful than those given most other classes.

[RaspK_FOG]

True, they had to get to assign a lot of abilities, but if you think it over and min-max your character (two brothers did this in the same campaign, both monk-lovers; at least they came up in different campaign eras&#33, you can leave Dexterity or Intelligence off and work your skills accordingly. It can work, if you check it out.

Furthermore, some really annoying feats WotC published allowed the second brother's monk to fell almost any creature with just one hit! You know, the kind of feat that says something in the line of: "If you jump that much distance, you deal more damage; make a Jump check, DC yada-yada.", or: "You attack and get off the ground, no longer being prone.", and so on...

I spoke from personal experience of min-max-ing players. And yes, his monk always survived. He even survived a situation of two brown bears while being, by choice, alone in the forest. The good part came when he started getting too cocky and forgot to play the part of the monk (that is, a mystic who tries to find enlightenment) and got his sensei's spirit slapping him for wanting more and more magic items!

[Mark_Aurel]

Which feats are you talking about? I know there's some prone fighting feats (which generally doesn't strike me as all that useful), but I haven't seen any feats that allow any form of instant kill, or near-instant kill. Name and source would be appreciated; sounds as likely to me that the rules are being interpreted wrong as that the rules are broken.

I'd also be interested in seeing a more specific example of the ability score and skill distribution you mention, and in what type of campaign context they fell in. I'm having a hard time actually coming up with anything I'd consider 'broken' here.

[RaspK_FOG]

Quite a few from "Sword and Fist". I suppose rules misinterpretation or "breaking" could be a reason for a seeming matter like that. I have at least once caught one of the two misinterpreting the AC bonus monks get: he thought the bonus stacked. Can you imagine the AC 43 10th level monk? Campaign: Greyhawk.

Anyway, what I mostly meant was the lack of "Super Speedy Sensei"s we would see in front of us, with the "Sky Splitting Slash"es to top that (unarmoured speed and unarmed damage). The damage is more even out, dealing 2d10 at 20th level instead of 1d20 (giving more medium rolls instead of 1s and 20s), and never reaching the outrageous 90 ft. per round! 60 ft. are still good, you know.
For example, a monk with expeditious retreat cast on him and a pair of boots of haste, combined with that feat that gives you 10 extra ft. per round (Dash), you would get ([90 + 10] * 2) * 2 = 100 * 4 = 400 ft. per round!
Top that with an allegro spell (doubles speed and maximum jumps), and you get a nice land speed of 800 ft.

It would be true to say that the loophole of not mentioning that your land speed could not be more than doubled was the reason for all this mayhem, but it was enhanced by the 90 ft. speed of a monk. Actually, would it apply (if it were not false) that two doublings are a tripling, as per damage? Sounds more reasonable.

Furthermore, I suppose that the idea of ability distribution was quite strange, but I specifically remember that that player had given his monk a not-so-high Dexterity score. We always played in "honour system" style, not allowing others to (except if we wanted to) check on our character sheets, but I can still remember the indications: low initiative, bad ranged attacks (if he ever made more than 5), etc. His Intelligence wasn't too high either.

[Osprey]

Actually, would it apply (if it were not false) that two doublings are a tripling, as per damage? Sounds more reasonable

You'll find that this is pretty much the case in all of 3e mechanics; 2 doublings = triple, 3 doubles = 4x, etc. So 2 spells that double land speed would triple the base speed, not quadruple it.

Mmm, "allegro spell"? Not familiar with that one. Isn't it a bit redundant with Expeditious Retreat and Jump? Kind-of a "2 for 1" spell? Hate that.

Quite a few from "Sword and Fist". I suppose rules misinterpretation or "breaking" could be a reason for a seeming matter like that. I have at least once caught one of the two misinterpreting the AC bonus monks get: he thought the bonus stacked. Can you imagine the AC 43 10th level monk? Campaign: Greyhawk

AC bonuses for Dex, Wis, and class levels do in fact stack in 3e. But consider that they only get the bonuses when not wearing armor (Bracers of Armor excluded). Monks can get pretty good AC, but a 10th level monk with AC 43 is WAY out of balance with what a normal monk of that level should be capable of. I don't know what kind of insane magical gear or Abilities that character had, but that's out of control.

Osprey

[CMonkey]

Sigh. Munchkin it is then:

that feat that gives you 10 extra ft. per round (Dash),

Dash gives 5' in light load and armour.

a monk with expeditious retreat cast on him and a pair of boots of haste

These things dont stack with a monks increased speed. Check your faqs.

CM.

[Osprey]

a monk with expeditious retreat cast on him and a pair of boots of haste

These things dont stack with a monks increased speed. Check your faqs

Hmm, but what about Boots of Striding and Springing? Or is monk speed simply incompatible with magical enhancements of any sort?

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Osprey@Aug 7 2003, 10:26 AM

a monk with expeditious retreat cast on him and a pair of boots of haste

These things dont stack with a monks increased speed. Check your faqs

Hmm, but what about Boots of Striding and Springing? Or is monk speed simply incompatible with magical enhancements of any sort?

The original point being made was that bonuses to speed from multiple magical items don't stack (like bonuses don't stack). A single magical enhancement normally would stack with a monk's base speed though (see below comment concerning FAQs though).

The reference to FAQs is probably refering to Sage Advice (free downloads from WotC site) I'd have to check to see what the specific reference being made is, but Iwill start off assuming that there is a specifc FAQ addressing this issue.

[kgauck]

ge -----

From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 11:05 AM





> The original point being made was that bonuses to speed from

> multiple magical items don`t stack (like bonuses don`t stack). A

> single magical enhancement would stack with a monk`s base

> speed though.



The problem with this, as I see it, is that spell research can find, and

hence create spells and magic items, that ustilize different bonuses. Such

spells may be higher level. The boots of speed provide a Haste bonus (I

think quite obviously since a Haste spell is the original magic). The text

gives me three interests to balance, encouraging good play (encouraging

smart players to put together suites of effects), consistency and logic (it

makes sense that a version of expiditious retreat granting a competence

bonus could be devised), and balance (it should be as difficult or expensive

to achieve as it is useful and beneficial).



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com