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  1. #11
    Site Moderator Ariadne's Avatar
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    Most powerful wizard? Between the awnsheglien: The Magian, no question.

    And no awnsheglien? How about the female leader of the "college of sorcery" of the imperial city of Anuire? If I remember right, she is level 19...
    May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!

  2. #12
    Site Moderator Ariadne's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Magian@Jul 23 2003, 05:29 AM
    it is a question of comparing levels because neither Mordenkainen nor Dalamar compare to Elminster.
    Errr... Elminster is a bit say overpowered compared to what he would be at his level, isn't he?

    If some guys tend to bluster about overpowering characters, they should look at those horrible creations first... :P

    Because in the 3.5 edition the magic system is really crippled, I would wonder, if Elminster can't cast any existing wizard spell as a spell-like ability at will...
    May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!

  3. #13
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    It stands to reason: in a high-fantasy, magic-rich campaign setting like Forgotten Realms, Elminster would outpower the premier mage of any other published setting. If he's the Big Guy of FR, think about his competition (say, Manshoon). If you actually want some stats, they published stats for Elminster, Mordenkain, Manshoon, and a few others in the back of the Epic Level Handbook.

    Has anyone wondered what would happen to Cerilia with the Epic conversions and advancement? I've considered it a lot, given the fact that straight conversions of awnsheigh like the Gorgon and Rhuobhe make them level 30+ epic characters and entitle them to epic feats that make them even scarier (as if that was necessary, right?).

    For the most part, I'm glad the main setting is non-epic, but sometimes I wonder at the extraordinarily low levels of many NPC regents. Does everyone gain xp slower in Birthright? Low magic or not, level 10+ makes you a peer of the realm in terms of individual prowess, and level 15+ makes you one of the preeminent powers of Cerilia. I never quite understood that.
    -Osprey

  4. #14
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ge -----

    From: "Osprey" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

    Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 12:38 PM



    > For the most part, I`m glad the main setting is non-epic, but sometimes

    > I wonder at the extraordinarily low levels of many NPC regents. Does

    > everyone gain xp slower in Birthright? Low magic or not, level 10+ makes

    > you a peer of the realm in terms of individual prowess, and level 15+

    makes

    > you one of the preeminent powers of Cerilia. I never quite understood

    that.



    I used to limit levels. I gave CR that more or less matched the party until

    about 5th level. I topped CR around 5, except for climax encounters. This

    put a drag on level advancement past 5th or 6th. I abandon this because too

    much neat stuff take place in character development after a character level

    of the 5-8 level range. In order to maintain a low magic level, I`ve

    required spellcasters to take at least 50% non-spellcasting levels. I`m a

    long way from Epic levels.



    Kenneth Gauck

    kgauck@mchsi.com

  5. #15
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    3 +0200, Osprey wrote:



    >For the most part, I`m glad the main setting is non-epic, but sometimes I

    >wonder at the extraordinarily low levels of many NPC regents. Does

    >everyone gain xp slower in Birthright?



    IMC, I found that about 1/4 to 1/3 the "standard" XP awards more

    satisfactory and sensible than those of 3e. Actually, I give the same

    amount of XP out as awards in non-BR settings too. The less manic pace of

    levelling up characters makes play more "realistic" from both the DM and

    player perspective.



    >Low magic or not, level 10+ makes you a peer of the realm in terms of

    >individual prowess, and level 15+ makes you one of the preeminent powers

    >of Cerilia. I never quite understood that.



    Personally, I think it was kind of a nod towards a more "realistic" setting

    in which characters could be killed or were at risk of death more directly

    than in other campaign settings. Using the standard D&D rules, however,

    the only effective means of conveying such a theme is by making the

    majority of characters low level.



    Gary

  6. #16
    n PBeM and Tabletop, I use the epic rules as they are laid out in the FRCS. This provides much less inflation of power but still allows for a Rhoubhe type character.



    I belive I have him listed as a Ranger 5/ Foe hunter 5/ Mage 13. When you do it via the FRCS you do not end up with impossible Attack and AC pogressions. Skills stay reasonable and hit points are comparible to any other 20th level character.



    I really like the BRCS with some of its wierd idiosyncrisies but the epic write-ups put the Gorgon on par with Sauron and we all know the only way to beat Sauron was with GM fiat.



    I am using a very small amount of the Dieties book on salient abilities for both the Gorgon and the Serpent (a major player in my game).



    Randy ~ Eosin











    >

    > This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

    > You can view the entire thread at:

    > http://www.birthright.net/forums/ind...=ST&f=2&t=1819

    >

    > Osprey wrote:

    > It stands to reason: in a high-fantasy, magic-rich campaign setting like Forgotten Realms, Elminster would outpower the premier mage of any other published setting. If he`s the Big Guy of FR, think about his competition (say, Manshoon). If you actually want some stats, they published stats for Elminster, Mordenkain, Manshoon, and a few others in the back of the Epic Level Handbook.

    >

    > Has anyone wondered what would happen to Cerilia with the Epic conversions and advancement? I`ve considered it a lot, given the fact that straight conversions of awnsheigh like the Gorgon and Rhuobhe make them level 30+ epic characters and entitle them to epic feats that make them even scarier (as if that was necessary, right?).

    >

    > For the most part, I`m glad the main setting is non-epic, but sometimes I wonder at the extraordinarily low levels of many NPC regents. Does everyone gain xp slower in Birthright? Low magic or not, level 10+ makes you a peer of the realm in terms of individual prowess, and level 15+ makes you one of the preeminent powers of Cerilia. I never quite understood that.

    > -Osprey

    >

    >

    >

    >

    >

    >

    >
    Hello, I guess I gotta have a sig.

  7. #17
    evel 10+ makes you a peer of the realm in terms of individual prowess, and level 15+ makes you one of the preeminent powers of Cerilia. I never quite understood that.



    Gary Relpied:

    > Personally, I think it was kind of a nod towards a more "realistic" setting in which characters could be killed or were at risk of death more directly than in other campaign settings. Using the standard D&D rules, however, the only effective means of conveying such a theme is by making the majority of characters low level.





    I find that most regents should be in the 5-7 level range. There is an un-noted change when we changed editions. Skills suddenly got figured in a radically different way. Under 2e with NWP - a 2nd level fighter with a 16 Int had more out of combat skill than a 10th level fighter who had a 12 Int. Only in combat was the difference "noticable" between a high or low level character. This allowed the designers some leeway with levels - Ghoere might be able to take the Mhor in personal combat but the Mhors military skills (from high Int and high skills overall) ensured that he was able to defend Mhoried well, even fending off the triple threat of Ghoere, Markazor, and the Five Peaks.



    3e Changes all of that. Skills are now directly linked to level and the BRCS only uses ranks in a huge number of places - this really tilts the scale infavor of level. Carilon Alam always the butt of jokes now becomes even more pitiful at second level with a non-impressive INT.



    The only way (IMO) to reconcile skill to combat ratio, was to raise the level of regents up between 5-7. This allows for some competency and even some impressive skills here and there. The problem in my mind now lies with the issue of relative levels - should Gavin remain 9th while Daeric is 7th? Should Harald Khorien remain simply 2nd or 3rd Level - remember that the rules on realm spells have also differed causing another disparity between relative levels. HK can no longer compete with Innis, even ignoring Taeghas and placing it into the hands of Avan, he just does not have the level to get the feats and skills he needs.



    I fear that the Guide to Cerilia team will look at what exsisted and not the framework of that exsistace as they do their work. Rodg in 2E had more NWP and "skill" than Hierl Diem, Marlae, or Suris - I hope that the same can be said when the new guide comes out. It is somewhat ironic that inorder to keep the balance they need to change the levels and risk the venom of the Serpent.



    Randy
    Hello, I guess I gotta have a sig.

  8. #18
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    n all honesty there aren`t that many adventurers in

    Cerilia...just like there weren`t that many in our world. Cerilia seems

    more settled than other campaign worlds, though it does have some of the

    most powerful baddies in any campaign I`ve ever seen.



    It was also pointed out to me that anyone of any great power may be

    "harvested" as it were by one of the more powerful Awnsheighlin. This made

    a lot of sense to me...especially since the Gorgon is said to do just this

    thing.



    I see the rulers of Birthright having various levels of power based on their

    influence. Darien Avan and all have their hands and minds doing a great

    deal of work constantly and have plenty of power to back it up. No doubt

    they gain xp for solving any number of problems and perhaps gain xp from the

    amount of regency they gain. This is what I did back when I ran my own

    campaign...give xp to a character based on the amount of regency they

    collect. A small amount, but over time it will build up.



    Regents like Carillon (sp?) Alam WISH they ruled a powerful realm, but in

    reality they rarely ever see any of their plots succeed and so they hardly

    ever collect any xp for them. His realm is weak also (comparing it to

    others) and so he doesn`t collect very much regency xp.



    The whole thing is good as far as I was concerned with 2nd Edition. The

    newer game makes XP far too easy to come across, and in fact I`ve doubled

    the amount of xp that has to be gained in my games while at the same time

    only awarding just as much as the CR system allows for. Makes progression

    much like it used to be at the lower levels; although the higher levels have

    a lower xp requirement I just tone back the encounter CRs to award less xp

    (or in some cases none at all).





    Tony





    ----Original Message Follows----

    From: Gary <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>



    At 07:38 PM 7/30/2003 +0200, Osprey wrote:



    >For the most part, I`m glad the main setting is non-epic, but sometimes I

    >wonder at the extraordinarily low levels of many NPC regents. Does

    >everyone gain xp slower in Birthright?



    IMC, I found that about 1/4 to 1/3 the "standard" XP awards more

    satisfactory and sensible than those of 3e. Actually, I give the same

    amount of XP out as awards in non-BR settings too. The less manic pace of

    levelling up characters makes play more "realistic" from both the DM and

    player perspective.



    >Low magic or not, level 10+ makes you a peer of the realm in terms of

    >individual prowess, and level 15+ makes you one of the preeminent powers

    >of Cerilia. I never quite understood that.



    Personally, I think it was kind of a nod towards a more "realistic" setting

    in which characters could be killed or were at risk of death more directly

    than in other campaign settings. Using the standard D&D rules, however,

    the only effective means of conveying such a theme is by making the

    majority of characters low level.



    Gary



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  9. #19
    Site Moderator Ariadne's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Osprey@Jul 30 2003, 06:38 PM
    Has anyone wondered what would happen to Cerilia with the Epic conversions and advancement? I&#39;ve considered it a lot, given the fact that straight conversions of awnsheigh like the Gorgon and Rhuobhe make them level 30+ epic characters and entitle them to epic feats that make them even scarier (as if that was necessary, right?).

    For the most part, I&#39;m glad the main setting is non-epic, but sometimes I wonder at the extraordinarily low levels of many NPC regents. Does everyone gain xp slower in Birthright? Low magic or not, level 10+ makes you a peer of the realm in terms of individual prowess, and level 15+ makes you one of the preeminent powers of Cerilia. I never quite understood that.
    I&#39;ve nothing against epic level rules and epic level advancements for PC&#39;s or NPC&#39;s. Birthright is as such a campaign of low-level PC&#39;s and NPC&#39;s, but if the players advance to epic level (after years and years of gaming) I don&#39;t see a problem to do so.

    IMC any Awnsheglien above 20th level uses epic level rules, the Serpent and the Gorgon even the abilities of "Quasi Deities" of the Deities and Demigods book. So if the really rare possibility occurs, that a PC reaches a level above 20th level, it would be unfair to say: "Hey, you&#39;re overpowered, take a new 1st level character" or "Hey, you&#39;re 20th level, there is NO level above that, sorry".

    If you actually want some stats, they published stats for Elminster, Mordenkain, Manshoon, and a few others in the back of the Epic Level Handbook.
    I have the stats. I only would wonder, how they change them in the new 3.5 version, because magic is so much underpowered now. I think, they compare that somehow...
    May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!

  10. #20
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    Hmmm, where to begin?

    I see the rulers of Birthright having various levels of power based on their influence. Darien Avan and all have their hands and minds doing a great
    deal of work constantly and have plenty of power to back it up. No doubt
    they gain xp for solving any number of problems and perhaps gain xp from the
    amount of regency they gain. This is what I did back when I ran my own
    campaign...give xp to a character based on the amount of regency they
    collect. A small amount, but over time it will build up.
    (Birthright-L)

    In my own campaign, I have no qualms about adjusting NPC levels to keep things balanced and interesting. Darien Avan ranks at least level 10-12, or higher depending how far into the game we&#39;ve gone, and where the PC&#39;s are at when they have to start dealing with him. I try to keep NPC&#39;s advancing based on how successful they are as rulers, and how much adventuring they do.

    In the original BR game, it was assumed that regents would spend a great deal of time adventuring, and this would provide their main source of advancement, treasure, and magic items. In my own game, I think any decent ruler simply can&#39;t afford to go off adventuring too often if he doesn&#39;t want his realm to fall into disrepair due to neglect.

    So I balanced out adventuring XP with XP awards based on good rulership. Any time a regent succeeds at a Domain Action (especially Rule, also Contest, Espionage, Create, and Realm Spell research), I give XP based on the base degree of difficulty. For example, a regent earns 100xp x new Holding level when they successfully rule a holding, and twice that (200 x new level) for ruling a Province (which is very difficult for most regents).

    So far, I&#39;ve really liked the effects this has had, and it makes those regent feats (like Regent Focus, Master Administrator, etc.) really worthwhile.

    However, xp based on regency? Given the power of RP (in domain actions or raising bloodline scores), isn&#39;t it already sufficient reward without xp thrown in?

    I have no problem with higher-level campaigns, given that the ultimate bad guy (the Gorgon) is over level 30. If anyone really could face the Gorgon and win, they should be epic-level characters. On the other hand, anyone notice the DC of the Gorgon&#39;s death gaze in BRCS?&#33;? Without Death Ward, you are DEAD - no ifs, ands, or buts unless you roll a nat 20. Great, you get one more round to live&#33;

    So my game does tend to involve faster advancement then what a lot of folks have described, but I&#39;m not a hardcore loyalist when it comes to honoring the levels and descriptions of NPC&#39;s as printed in the 2e BR game.

    To each his own.

    Osprey

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