Detect Evil at will?

[kgauck]

ge -----

From: "Michael Romes" <Archmage@T-ONLINE.DE>

Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 11:33 PM





> In the Players Secrets of Talinie he is listed as having an Amulet of

> proof against detection and location and a ring of mind shielding.

> Perhaps the author intended him to go undetected with that items.



Having everyone walk around with magical items is fine, I suppose. John

Machin suggested Undetectable Alignment. Personally, I`m not a big fan of

putting a specific arrangement of magical items on every villian, or

assuming everyone magics up before they are seen in public. All of that

really limits a villian. Some other solution must be out there.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[Eosin the Red]

gnment detecting spells but give Paladins a "Spider

Sense" when evil is about. Nothing exacting but enough to put them on their

toes.



Randy

----- Original Message -----

From: "Kenneth Gauck" <kgauck@MCHSI.COM>

To: <BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>

Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 1:15 AM

Subject: Re: Detect Evil at will? [36#1764]





> ----- Original Message -----

> From: "Michael Romes" <Archmage@T-ONLINE.DE>

> Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 11:33 PM

>

>

> > In the Players Secrets of Talinie he is listed as having an Amulet of

> > proof against detection and location and a ring of mind shielding.

> > Perhaps the author intended him to go undetected with that items.

>

> Having everyone walk around with magical items is fine, I suppose. John

> Machin suggested Undetectable Alignment. Personally, I`m not a big fan of

> putting a specific arrangement of magical items on every villian, or

> assuming everyone magics up before they are seen in public. All of that

> really limits a villian. Some other solution must be out there.

>

> Kenneth Gauck

> kgauck@mchsi.com

>

>



>

> Birthright-l Archives:

http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html

>

>

[Green Knight]

l Evil clerics...the paladin can`t just go around smiting every evil sod he meets - especially when the he`s a rankign church member.



While the patriarch is evil - does that mean he`s an enemy of his own faith?



Of course he`s not, and the paladin will give him due respect, even if they disagree on some points.



B

>

> Fra: Kenneth Gauck <kgauck@MCHSI.COM>

> Dato: 2003/07/27 Sun PM 10:47:10 CEST

> Til: BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM

> Emne: Re: Detect Evil at will? [36#1764]

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: "CMonkey" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

> Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 3:30 PM

>

>

> > Well it happened.

>

> How is it that said acting patriarch simultaneously got as far as he did

> without being detected and then was tripped up by this paladin? My sense

> would be that either 1) the acting patriarch has fooled others and will fool

> this one, 2) the acting patriarch can fool no one, including the paladin, or

> 3) there is some special reason that there is an exception to the general

> rule.

>

> When the PC is the first person to make what seems like a rather obvious

> discovery using pretty common means, it seems rather Potomkin.

>

> Kenneth Gauck

> kgauck@mchsi.com

>

>

>

>

>

>

>



Cheers

Bjørn



-------------------------------------------------

WebMail fra Tele2 http://www.tele2.no

-------------------------------------------------

[Green Knight]

lerics and paladins register as strongly evil. The evil courtier might register as slightly evil, but what the hell does that mean?



The paladin might feel slightly uneasy around the man, but unless he actually does something...



Besides, there are probably a lot of evil-aligned people out there, and the paladin can`t really keep track of them all.



>

> Fra: UncleHyena <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

> Dato: 2003/07/28 Mon AM 01:56:47 CEST

> Til: BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM

> Emne: Re: Detect Evil at will? [36#1764]

>

> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/ind...ST&f=36&t=1764

>

> UncleHyena wrote:

> I can see where this discussion could quickly break down into a discussion of the essential nature of good and evil...

>

> For my money, a "Detect Evil" spell would very seldom be useful in a court setting. It would probably pick up someone who was about to do something horrific strictly for his own benefit, or just because he was crazy, but it wouldn`t pick up run of the mill duplicity, because most political duplicity is sincere and well intentioned. Politicians are usually convinced they are doing the best thing when they tell lies to the people; the salesman who lies through his teeth is simply doing his job to the best of his ability, and so on.

>

> In short, "Detect Evil" is NOT "Detect Lie" or "Detect Enemy". It would only be of marginal use in a court setting, and probably doesn`t need to be resatricted.

>

> Uncle Hyena

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>



Cheers

Bjørn



-------------------------------------------------

WebMail fra Tele2 http://www.tele2.no

-------------------------------------------------

[irdeggman]

It is my firm belief that a temple will take on the alignment of its leader. Look at the real world equivalents. Now this might not be an immediate thing but it will happen over time if only due to the fact that the leader will draw in people of like mindeness and lose those who don&#39;t feel the same way.

Now in the example given the "leader" is only an acting leader and not the "true" leader of the temple.

Also just because a character is evil doesn&#39;t mean he does stupid things. The description of the text on how he is talking to the paladin clearly expresses ideals that are contrary to Haelyn&#39;s doctrine (regardless of the temple) and are also not very lawful in intent so he is probably in deep doo-doo in regards to the "loyal" followers of the temple.

Green Knight points out that good clerics and paladins radiate strongly good, (Actually he said that they register as strongly evil - I assume this was a typo) actually this depends. In 2nd ed yes in 3rd ed they would have an aura strength equal to their class level (actually only the cleric is listed but I&#39;d say that the paladin is the same for this case) so it may or may not be a strong aura. (They&#39;d have to be 5th level or higher for that). This is also punctuated by the fact that in 3rd ed evil clerics can no longer turn paladins.

Also to point out something that is vastly different between the 2 editions - a paladin does not detect evil intent anymore, only evil (as per the spell). The spell description does not include anything pertaining to intentions only to alignment.

[kgauck]

ge -----

From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 5:07 AM





> It is my firm belief that a temple will take on the alignment of its

leader.



I view temples as political organizations just like any other, composed of

competing factions. The faction represented by the leader may grow

stronger, or at least more confident, but the temple will continue to

reflect each of the various parties which compose it. When I devise parties

for a temple of Haelyn I go through the typical faction building exercise,

who gets along best with the landed ruler, or who with A and who with B, who

thinks X is the greatest threat and who thinks Y is the greatest. And so

on. I also see three poles, the CG, the LG/NG and the LE/LN poles. When

possible, I try to associate alignments with factions and factions with

alignments. Overlap is expected. If a fourth faction is evident, then two

are liabble to be LG, one a LG/LN, and one a LG/NG faction. Each faction

has its powerbase, its agenda, and so forth. These are closely aligned, but

differences clearly exist.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[Trithemius]

ving everyone walk around with magical items is fine, I

> suppose. John Machin suggested Undetectable Alignment.

> Personally, I`m not a big fan of putting a specific

> arrangement of magical items on every villian, or assuming

> everyone magics up before they are seen in public. All of

> that really limits a villian. Some other solution must be out there.



Regarding Torias Griene I like to think that Eloele at least has

specific magics that pertain to deceiving people. The followers of

certain horrible gods in HeroWars have specific magical skills that are

used to fool followers of other gods who would like very much to root

them out. I think that Undetectable Alignment is just the boring vanilla

D&D equivalent of the "Hide from Enemies" magic.



I personally don`t like to have a lot of "invisible" evil villains. The

coolest antagonists I think are "visible"; people with ideas that the

players would, in other circumstances, agree with. ;)



--

John Machin

(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)

-----------------------------------

"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."

Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

[kgauck]

ge -----

From: "John Machin" <trithemius@PARADISE.NET.NZ>

Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 8:12 AM





> Regarding Torias Griene I like to think that Eloele at least has

> specific magics that pertain to deceiving people. The followers of

> certain horrible gods in HeroWars have specific magical skills that are

> used to fool followers of other gods who would like very much to root

> them out. I think that Undetectable Alignment is just the boring vanilla

> D&D equivalent of the "Hide from Enemies" magic.



All true, but is this power a class feature, a special Eloele feat, or an

especially good spell?



> I personally don`t like to have a lot of "invisible" evil villains. The

> coolest antagonists I think are "visible"; people with ideas that the

> players would, in other circumstances, agree with. ;)



While I too like villains to be out in the open, and my players rather

dislike Torias, I also like the villains to be even more villainous than the

players know. If Griene is to be uncovered for what he is, I`d rather it be

because PC`s put together information from a series of encounters and foiled

plots, not because someone walks into his presence and knows his deepest

secrets. The evolving discovery of who is behind things and why is more fun

than confronting the Gorgon.



I do, for example, have the White Witch out there, but I don`t do very much

with her, because 1) I don`t want to play a Viking X-files, and 2) super

secret enties are limited by their own super secretness.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[Osprey]

Regarding evil and good in court settings...
It&#39;s been my impression since I first got into Birthright that there&#39;s a fair mix of good and evil in Cerilia, including within court and regent circles. This being the case, a palidin or cleric could detect evil all day. So what? So you know that the neighboring baron is evil. What are you gonna&#39; do about it? Anyone with at least a rank or more in Knowledge: Nobility (which should be most courtiers in Anuire) knows that there are plenty of "evil" people out there. Is that the same as being a criminal? Absolutely not. It might mean you shouldn&#39;t trust the guy (or lady), but that&#39;s not an unreasonable use for a palidin&#39;s or cleric&#39;s abilities.
Particularly regarding the followers of Haelyn, there&#39;s evil and there&#39;s justice. How just is it to start a fight with someone just because "they&#39;re evil, I sensed it&#33;" Put that in any kind of realistic setting, and it sounds ludicrous. If the roleplaying gets that bad, the DM and players need to sit down and have a little chat about politics.

[Osprey]

Regarding Villains:
I was almost tempted to start a new thread for this one, but I wanted those who began the discussion to not miss the replies.
The issue of visible vs. invisible villains in Birthright is a really poignant one. I&#39;ve always wondered if villains and evil regents like Guilder Kalien and Gavin Tael are widely known as such, or if they do a good job of disguising their darker deeds.
Bearing in my mind that my only real source material is the original 2ndEd. Boxed Set and the D20 Playtest, my impression has been that these kinds of regents (in Anuire, at least) have their dirty little secrets but tend to come across as more neutral in demeanor. This makes sense if one assumes that few Anuireans really like having an obviously evil ruler, and that neigboring "good guy" lords would gang up on the evil ones very quickly if things got blatant. Not to mention dealing with rebellions and sabotage would be a constant problem for such regents given the general Anuirean attitude towards evil. Haelyn is their patron deity, after all, and this sets a Lawful Good standard of living as the default cultural attitude, with perhaps a Lawful Neutral leaning due to Anduiras and the alignment of the leading powers in Anuire (Avanil, Boeruine, the Western Imperial Temple, etc.).
Beyond that, it&#39;s just bad politics to be noticeably evil in most settings. Who trusts a known traitor? Who will make an alliance with such a person? It&#39;s fine for ancient evils like the Gorgon to be blatant villains - they&#39;re so powerful that nobody can really do anything about it. But for Gavin Tael, a concerted effort by most or all of his neighbors against him could be disastrous. So I imagine he&#39;d have to play a careful game of bluff and intimidation, and conceal some of his more nefarious activities. No one thinks he&#39;s either nice or unambitious, but that&#39;s a far cry from naming him a villain.
On the other hand, villains who exist in the wilds and fringes of civilization can do or be whatever they want. That&#39;s why they&#39;re on the outskirts, right? It&#39;s the ones surrounded by do-gooders who have to watch their step.

-Osprey