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  1. #11
    Site Moderator Ariadne's Avatar
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    Originally posted by irdeggman@Jun 29 2003, 12:40 PM
    IMO it's needless tinkering. Paladins have always had this ability and there is no real reason presented to remove it.

    Paladins also have a moral code and the indescriminant use of this ability is like a search without probable cause. Also using the ability requires concentrating and since it's a spell-like ability it does generate an attack of opportunity.
    Completely your opinion...

    What I always wanted to know (O.K., it might be of topic), but if a spell-like ability is activated mentally (you only need to think of it, no gestures or something), how do they provoke an attack of opportunity? Your "victim" does not really recognize what you're doing, or not? :huh:
    May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!

  2. #12
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    If a spell-like ability is activated mentally (you only need to think of it, no gestures or something), how do they provoke an attack of opportunity? Your "victim" does not really recognize what you're doing, or not?
    I always pictured it as a short period of internal reflection and then a mental "push" - thus your focus is entirely internal and not on the threats around you: "He's not moving - get him!".

    Or more grotesquely - how aware are you of your surroundings when you are straining for a really big poo? :blink:

    CM
    (Today I will mostly be attempting to get myself banned from the forums :unsure: )

  3. #13
    Moo! Are you happy now? Arjan's Avatar
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    Originally posted by CMonkey@Jul 3 2003, 12:51 PM
    CM
    (Today I will mostly be attempting to get myself banned from the forums :unsure: )
    all you have to do is ask

    arjan
    Te audire non possum. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure.

  4. #14
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Generating an attack of opportunity doesn't mean that the opponent has to take it, it just means that the opening is there.

    The point is that the character engaged in the activity (for example using a spell-like ability) is distracted and hence has generated an opening.

    Remember that in order to take advantage of the AoO a character has to be within melee reach when the action occurs - e.g., you can't move up and attack. B)
    Duane Eggert

  5. #15
    Site Moderator Ariadne's Avatar
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    Originally posted by irdeggman@Jul 3 2003, 04:35 PM
    Generating an attack of opportunity doesn't mean that the opponent has to take it, it just means that the opening is there.

    The point is that the character engaged in the activity (for example using a spell-like ability) is distracted and hence has generated an opening.

    Remember that in order to take advantage of the AoO a character has to be within melee reach when the action occurs - e.g., you can't move up and attack. B)
    ThatI did understand, but how does the opponent knows, that he can use his attack of opportunity?

    Well, the argument: "Look, he stares, hit him...! makes sense to me...
    May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!

  6. #16
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Basically when engaged in melee 2 characters are eyeing each other sensing an opening. It doesn't have to be an overt opening, just one that a combatant would sense. There wouldn't be any discussion involved since only the character in melee reach would have the opportunity to act - i.e., someone across the room wouldn't be able to point it out to him.
    Duane Eggert

  7. #17
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    [FONT=Arial][SIZE=1]

    I believe someone using a spell-like ability is vulnerable to an attack of opportunity because they must let their guard down to concentrate on using the ability, thus lessening their defensive capability. Any situation in which a defender must let their guard down can result in an attack of opportunity.
    Ok, let me weigh in on the detect evil thing. Imo, keep it simple. Detect evil should do exactly as the spell states; no more, no less. It detects creatures or objects of evil alignment. Unless you're dealing with a cleric, outsider, undead, or elemental, a creature's evil power is very generalized and doesn't give much of a clue to the creature's true power. Consider that any evil-aligned creature (not of the types listed above) of HD/lvl 1-9 gives off only a faint aura, and those of lvl 10 all the way to 24 character levels still give off only a moderate aura! So NPCs of evil persuasion must be well into the epic levels to command a strong aura of evil power. And an overwhelming aura- forget it for any mortal non-cleric :lol: So, as you can see, detect evil doesn't give a whole lot of info on how big a threat a creature might be.
    Instead, the purpose of the paladin's detect evil ability is to have a kind of early-warning radar system to identify potential enemies in unfamiliar territory or settings. Paladins are almost always obvious to the villians; therefore, the paladin must have a way to immediately identify potential threats before he gets a knife in his backside. However, this kind of info is primarily only of use to the paladin and those allies who unquestioningly trust his judgement. A palidin is unlikely to walk into a court and immediately call out all the bad guys in front of everyone, or even to the regent behind closed doors for the simple reason that the palidin may not be believed, and his naming of names may not be appreciated.
    After all, the regent in this example doesn't have the luxury of consulting the Player's Handbook, reading over the paladin class description and detect evil spell, and then coming to the logical conclusion that the paladin must be correct. Unfortunately, we GMs and players engage in this kind of metagame thinking way too much. The paladin names names, and the DM figures he has no choice but for his NPC regent to act accordingly on the paladin's statements; after all, it's coming from a paladin, right? And everyone knows they don't lie. Or do they?
    Fact is, most people of Cerilia, even pious ones, aren't all that familiar with what a paladin can and can't exactly do. If the DM puts himsel inside the head of our regent facing this diabolical dilemma of a paldin naming his most trusted seneschel as evil swine, the regent will react as any normal human being would- emotionally and illogically. The heavier the emotional investment the regent has in his advisor or whatever, the less likely he will be prepared to accept the palidin's accusation(s). There is also the matter of the regent's pride, or the fact that he hears similar accusations about this and that courtier every day; so why should the paladin be taken any more seriously? There are a hundred different factors that could come into play, meaning each such situation needs to be role-played out. But on the whole, unless the paladin has the ear of the regent who's court he has just scanned to pick out evil-doers one, two, and three, he is probably best served by keeping his mouth shut and the information to himself and his comrades, lest he commit a serious diplomatic faux pas.
    And as has already been mentioned, any villain worth his salt is going to take precautions against detection. After all, paladins aren't the only ones who can cast detect evil.

  8. #18
    Senior Member RaspK_FOG's Avatar
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    An attack of opportunity is what it says, and not any mystical action; when you use a spell-like ability, drink a potion, or otherwise provoke an attack of opportunity, as the phrase implies, you provoke someone to attack you, since now you leave an opening that you previously did not!

    Consider the following situation... When a paladin tries to detect evil, he is not paying attention to incoming blows, but to identifying any source of evil, thus distracting him from combat. Any combatant can realise when an opening is made as easilly as you can realise that someone does not focus his eyes on you, for example. If you were drinking a potion, you would raise the vial to your lips, not paying much attention to your opponent, since you have to raise your chin as well... And so on!

  9. #19
    Moo! Are you happy now? Arjan's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Ariadne+Jul 3 2003, 05:34 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ariadne @ Jul 3 2003, 05:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--irdeggman@Jul 3 2003, 04:35 PM
    Generating an attack of opportunity doesn&#39;t mean that the opponent has to take it, it just means that the opening is there.

    The point is that the character engaged in the activity (for example using a spell-like ability) is distracted and hence has generated an opening.

    Remember that in order to take advantage of the AoO a character has to be within melee reach when the action occurs - e.g., you can&#39;t move up and attack. B)
    ThatI did understand, but how does the opponent knows, that he can use his attack of opportunity?

    Well, the argument: "Look, he stares, hit him...&#33; makes sense to me... [/b][/quote]
    sorry for the test posts in the thread, but i have to try to get rid of the embedded html tags.

    Arjan
    Te audire non possum. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure.

  10. #20
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by CMonkey@Jun 29 2003, 07:31 AM
    I really think a section on the different paladin&#39;s codes would be a valuable addition to the BRCS.

    CM.
    Good point.

    This is something best handled in the Atlas, which is including a write up on the different temples. Ariadne, since you&#39;ve already done substantial work on Cuircean&#39;s churches how about adding something concerning paladins? Which temples support paladins, how their code of conduct differs/is the same - something along those lines would fit in really well.
    Duane Eggert

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