Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 25
  1. #11
    Birthright Developer
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Gothenburg, Sweden
    Posts
    949
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    That sounds ... uh ... interesting. Why not simply let one of them gain the upper hand?
    Jan E. Juvstad.

  2. #12
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Northern Ireland
    Posts
    6
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    The reason for the situation in Avanil in the Shadow of the Blood game was because this was already part of the history of the Plains of Blood, the Khinasi PBeM which had been running independently before it was incorporated into the Shadow of the Blood.

    This is detailed below.

    Raesene Andu
    Khinasi Administrator
    (1/22/02 9:24:48 am)
    Re: DMing Anuire
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    One question for those running Anuire. I recently had a plot for the Khinasi section (before it became part of this Cerilia wide campaign) of Darien Avan travelling to Ariya for a diplomatic meeting with the Prince-Paladin, only he has now been kidnapped along the way by pirates. This was to lead into an adventure action for various regents, but if you have a player for Avanil, he can escape on his own before next season.


    Secondly as the character and the name of the Avanil posts has only changed recently I can only surmise that you only took over Avanil recently. The information about Darien Avan's behaviour and disappearance has been up in the Anuire and Khinasi history pages since the game began so you should have been aware of this before taking over the domain which was listed as under consideration.

  3. #13
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Greece
    Posts
    66
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    For those who want to learn what really happened, read the forums of the game.

    http://pub11.ezboard.com/bbirthright81626
    Gods never die, but they are always born...

  4. #14
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Greece
    Posts
    21
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    The guy who left SotB considered it useful to sware at his DM in the IC forums and to publish information that was meant to be kept secret between the DM and the Avanil player.I just hope the damage he caused is not so big...And he should have learned by now that the DM's decisions are only to provide fun and challenges for the PCs.If some guys can't cope with that then that's too bad , but please don't ruin our game.We want to play and not sit and hear you quarelling with the DM.
    Are you sure Attila the hun was human ?

  5. #15
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    LA
    Posts
    21
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Well, well, well.

    Raesene Andu, if you knew what you were talking about, it would be impressive. Unfortunately, the GM said nothing of the sort, he said you can't get your regent out, except if you pay 40GB to the pirates.

    To further make things worse I don't know if the pirates will honor their agreement, I guess it depends on the GM and how generous he is feeling.

    As far as the Khinasi region, I could care less if Ian Hoskins made some choices, this doesn't mean that Darien Avan would make an idiotic choice to go on a cruise with no guards and no fleet. Avanil has a fleet of roughly 40 ships, 15 or so which are galleons, it would be stupid to go and get caught if you have a huge backup fleet. Second, it would be stupid to go sailing anywhere if you are the Prince without a 5 military unit escort, after all, half of the assassins in the Empire work for Berouine.

    So, while this may be a good story, if the GM doesn't know that is what it is meant to be, because some other assnine GM failed to inform him, then he won't work with the player or let him have any options. The only thing he let me know was that the Prince of Avanil went on a stupid cruise, instead of sending a diplomat and he could not come up with a reason as to why this would be the logical thing to do for the Prince of Avanil or even give me a reason as to why he went to Khinasi. The GM did not even know which country Darien Avan went to or what the purpose of the meeting was.

    Are you begining to see why I was so frustrated? Oh and if you don't believe me, email me and I will forward his messages to me. aap20687@csun.edu

    As for the goblin khan, aren't you the one who called everyone and their mother, a racist because we told you to leave, since we don't like goblins.
    Independence breeds chaos,
    Submit and be strong.

  6. #16
    Birthright Developer
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Gothenburg, Sweden
    Posts
    949
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    After reading through most of that, it does sound rather frustrating and heavy-handed.

    The obvious solution would seem to let the player make the choice, then inform the DM of the other region, rather than letting a DM from another region simply overrule someone who is a player in another.

    It must be very frustrating indeed that your character is set to act in a certain way, and not even get to know why he acts in such a way. At the very minimum, the DM could have said it was due to some strange magical effect... (the standard weak excuse)

    Just seems to me to be in very clear violation of one of the "golden rules of good DMing" here.
    Jan E. Juvstad.

  7. #17
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Greece
    Posts
    21
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    First of all i never called YOU a racist in real life!! For Christe's shake , that was against the delegate of Avanil from a goblin that was called Demon spawn!!I'm not a demon spawn in real life either you know:)

    Now to Mark.I don't know what the DMs had in mind , especially after the dissapearnce of Raesene Andu.(really what's going on with Raesene Andu ? I hope this is not a serious personal problem!I really hope that he is OK...)

    First of all , is it so weird for Avanil to go on a cruise and attacked by pirates or i don't know by anyone else ? I mean wherever Darien Avan goes , he must be accompanied by a 1000 soldiers even in his personal life ? If Boeruine wants to kill Avanil to get the iron throne , well that's an idea of how you see the game.There are many views on the Avan-Boeruine conflict.

    Of course the pirates is not somehting predictable by the PC.You could call an Anuire wide campaign to help your prince and i'm sure that even Boeruine would help.That's one of the many choices to handle such a challenging situation.And you threw it away!
    Are you sure Attila the hun was human ?

  8. #18
    Birthright Developer
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Gothenburg, Sweden
    Posts
    949
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Avan is probably quite paranoid about his personal security - even in the adventure Sword and Crown, he travelled with an entourage of a unit of knights - as did Boeruine, as I recall. Not just a regular ol' bodyguard, but an army. I'd imagine he'd be able to protect himself from pirates as well - as I recall, Avanil has one of the most powerful, if not THE most powerful fleets in all of Cerilia. There is also the question of what the heck Avan would have to gain by going to Ariya.

    The bottom line, though, is that it just sounds like a piece of bad DM communication/planning, and then just using the "I am the DM, shut up and put up or get out" schtick instead of actually justifying what was going on - because there really is no justification. Sure, being a DM is a lot of work - but the purpose of it is to make it a good time for everyone involved. This DM seems to have ignored a highly legitimate player concern in favor of just laying the law down.
    Jan E. Juvstad.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Lawgiver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Murray, KY
    Posts
    1,054
    Downloads
    9
    Uploads
    0
    Overall it was largely a communication breakdown. DM Darkon greatly respects Raesene Andu (Ian Hoskins) as do we all. Ian is one of the key figures in carrying on the legacy of Birthright. Deferring to his plot line for Avan is not such an outlandish descision. If Raesene didn't pass along info on the reason for the "cruise" of Avanil DM Darkon should have simply asked the Avanese player to hang tight. Reasene stated that Avanil would likely escape "the next season". I mean after all its only turn two. No need to panic.

    -Avan may not have wished to travel with his army for many reasons. The cheif one being an attempt at secrecy. One doesn't usually hide an armada of 20+ ships, but a lone vessel rarely draws much attention.

    -the 40GB ransom is a bit much to say the least. 20-25 would have been about the max.

    -complaints about the unsurity of Avan's safety should the ransom be paid. Is this any different then a normal kindapping situation? Even if the ransom is paid the victim is still at the mercy of the offenders.

    -I happen to agree with Darkon on the unrealisitc demands and harsh treatment of the Chamberlain by Avan's delegate in the Senate. Avan was a contender for the throne and would have tried his best to appease/work with the Chamberlain, not accost his as a petty servant who dared defy the Prince. But again I think this was due to a bit of a mis communication. Avan seemed to treat the Senate under some preconceived ideas (apparently a past campaign):
    * the Senate existed since the fall of the empire --> the DM presented it as a newly created faction in an effort to promote peace and unity.
    * the Senate superceded the Chamberlain's juristiction while in the halls
    * the Chamberlain had no power to control who attended or was expelled from the Senate meetings (even though he initiated the Senate meeting and sent the invites...)

    -while it may be to late and your reaction (eric - Avanil) pretty much shot all hope I would have hoped the chaos could be brought to order and the game could have continued. -
    -Overall I think it was a mistake on the part of DM Darkon to even consider offering the potisions of Avanil, Boeruine, or Ghoere to PCs. Unless you as a DM are familiar with the requesting player's track record and their skill as roleplayers the potential abuse of power and unbalancing effect is to great to allow.
    Servant of the Most High,
    Lawgiver

    Isaiah 1:17
    Learn to do good; Seek justice, Rebuke the oppressor; Defend the fatherless, Plead for the widow.

  10. #20
    Birthright Developer
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Gothenburg, Sweden
    Posts
    949
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    The problem with all those assumptions is that they are just that - the player was not given any reason why his *character* would act that way, just told what he did, and that it even went wrong. The first part is bad enough - telling a player what his character does - the second is even worse - making what the character does go wrong, when the player has no choice in the matter. The DM might as well go, "you cut your hand off. Muhaha. I am the DM, and you can't object to it."

    As for assumptions, it seems to me that the whole Avan Kidnapped plot was something Hoskins had planned, but never fulfilled on, when he learned there was an Avanese player - so the Anuirean DM might as well have ignored the event. In any case, no good explanation was ever offered for Avan going to Ariya to negotiate - it seems to me that Avan wouldn't stand to gain much by doing so - Ariya could probably contribute nothing to his Anuirean cause - in fact, Ariya would likely oppose any attempts at reunifying Anuire, since that would once again threaten Khinasi independence...

    One can, of course, question the reasoning behind giving a player control of a domain like Avanil at all - it depends on what you intend to do with the PBeM, I suppose. If the purpose is to give each player a relatively fair and balanced shot at the throne, or at least, "greatness," then doling out domains on that scale will make some players better off than others. If, on the other hand, the purpose is to have a fun game, I'd make any domain fair game - even the Gorgon's. The DM would in that case simply be a referee, not a storyteller - the story would be told in the interaction between the domains instead. Of course, whoever should play the Gorgon should be *worthy* of the role - twisted and devious beyond salvation. In general, though, I'd agree that such domains should be beyond the control of players, or the play will simply center around them (not that it wouldn't anyway - I suppose PBeMs are different in this regard than table play) - it's like letting a couple of players play 10th-level character in a predominantly 5th-level group.

    Whatever the case, and whoever the DM, it sounds like very poor work in terms of both communication and storytelling, and then it gets compounded by the "I am the DM" schtick as well. No wonder this particular player got frustrated quickly.

    40 GB is actually a quite reasonable ransom when you consider the domain of Avanil - it is approximately what Avan raises in taxes alone each season; he probably raises far more than that through other means, and the Avanese treasury holds a fair sum already - 40 GB would hurt, but it wouldn't be anywhere near a disaster.

    As for the senate and that, I see that strictly as an addition for the sake of communication in a PBeM game, nothing else. However the background for it is handled, I find calling for the removal of a goblin representative in proper character, but not the fight with the chamberlain.

    It seems to me to be a case where the DM's mistakes led to player mistakes - frustration would seem the likely cause of the outburst in the senate, more than anything else; the DM himself even pointed this out.

    At a minimum, the DM should have made up a reason for Avan going to Ariya, then presented this reason to Hoskins in the same manner - "Avan went to Ariya to negotiate taking the prince of Ariya as a vassal in return for some Avanese mercenaries helping to conquer Aftane." Then he would have to write that into his campaign in a similar manner.

    The co-DMing model adopted here seems less than optimal, to say the least. While I can see the excitement in making the entire continent playable, it does require a very high degree of cooperation between DMs - when they borrow each other's characters, they should ask, not inform. In this case, the Khinasi campaign was the primogen, so Hoskins should at minimum, as a matter of courtesy, given the entire story, so that the other DM might better play with it. If not, it's simply rude, and the other DM could certainly return the favor - "the regents of Suirene, Ariya and Khourane have a secret meeting in Elinie, where they are killed - now play by that, it's part of an adventure I have for one of my players." In short - it also seems a bit unnecessary - the Khinasi region has plenty of characters of its own that can be used - why not use them, instead of hauling characters from halfway around the continent - in particular, characters central to another part of the continent?
    Jan E. Juvstad.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
BIRTHRIGHT, DUNGEONS & DRAGONS, D&D, the BIRTHRIGHT logo, and the D&D logo are trademarks owned by Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and are used by permission. ©2002-2010 Wizards of the Coast, Inc.