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Thread: Lycanthropes

  1. #11
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    Originally posted by irdeggman





    Originally posted by destowe

    How about the only natural lycanthropys are direct desecndents of the worg riders at Mount Deismaar?
    "Natural lycanthropes" now there is an oxymoron in the making, like semi-boneless ham, military intelligence, etc.
    It does sound strange, but p.219 of the 3.0 MM states:


    Most lycanthropes are born, not made, and are sometimes called "natural lycanthropes" to distinguish them from those who have contracted lycanthropy("afflicted lycanthropes").


    The sidebar of the new skill Control Shape has a blurb about natural lycanthropes instead having the feat Impoved Control Shape, which gives them full control over their shapeshifting abilities.

    These are the dangerous ones. They can walk outside on the night of the full moon and stay humanoid.

  2. #12
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Sidhain" <sidhain@EARTHLINK.NET>
    Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 10:32 AM


    > I`d suggest to those in this discussion actually Reading the Rjurik
    > information, as this suggests that lycanthropy isn`t a curse (just a
    `Fate`)
    > and is seen as a good thing much like the berzerk (bear skins) or
    ulfhednar
    > (wolf skins) of legend. That is lycanthropy isn`t necessarily as "D&D"
    sees
    > it, but is much more similar to how folklore of Earth sees it. Dangerous,
    > frightening, but not necessarily, evil.

    I treat Rjurik shapechanging as much more druidical in inspiratuion than
    lycanthropic. The dooms un uncontrolled, unpracticed, and more restrictive.
    The class powers of rage and wildshape are controlled, practiced
    manifestations of the same natural force.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  3. #13
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Birthright-L

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>
    To: <BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
    Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 7:38 AM
    Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] Lycanthropes [2#1745]


    > This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
    > You can view the entire thread at:
    http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1745
    >
    > irdeggman wrote:
    >
    Originally posted by destowe
    >
    > How about the only natural lycanthropys are direct
    desecndents of the worg riders at Mount Deismaar?
    >
    >
    > "Natural lycanthropes" now there is an oxymoron in the making, like
    semi-boneless ham, military intelligence, etc.
    >


    I`d suggest to those in this discussion actually Reading the Rjurik
    information, as this suggests that lycanthropy isn`t a curse (just a `Fate`)
    and is seen as a good thing much like the berzerk (bear skins) or ulfhednar
    (wolf skins) of legend. That is lycanthropy isn`t necessarily as "D&D" sees
    it, but is much more similar to how folklore of Earth sees it. Dangerous,
    frightening, but not necessarily, evil.
    And I'd suggest reading a little deeper - they are called Special Dooms and if you go back even farther to the Celts Campaign Sourcebook they are called Character Gifts. The Celtic Campaign Sourcebook also refers to a elvish type fey creature called "the Sidhe".

    The Rjurik Highlands also states "First, while called "dooms" in keeping with Rjurik culture and outlook, they are probably more accurately referred to as "curses", since their presence does not necessarily lead to an afflicted character's destruction." And the entry under shapechanger (the reference you are obviously refering to) states "Rjurik shapechangers are not lycanthropes, and use entirely different rules." and "These individuals wander the land alone and are blessed (or, in the opinion of many, cursed) with the ability to transform into fearsome, wild creatures."

    There is no exclusion of lycanthropy as existing and the special doom, shapechanger, is an entirely different thing.

    destowe thanks for pointing out the sentence in the 3.0 MM, although it says "many" not "most" it is still an impotant note and a pretty major deviation from previous editions. It should be noted that it is still considered a magical disease (see PHB pg 42 and MM pg 219) but only "afflicted" lycanthropes can be cured of lycanthropy.
    Duane Eggert

  4. #14
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    >
    > And I`d suggest reading a little deeper - they are called Special Dooms
    and if you go back even farther to the Celts Campaign Sourcebook they are
    called Character Gifts. The Celtic Campaign Sourcebook also refers to a
    elvish type fey creature called "the Sidhe".
    >

    The Celts campaign has nothing to do with Birthright.


    > The Rjurik Highlands also states "First, while called "dooms" in
    keeping with Rjurik culture and outlook, they are probably more accurately
    referred to as "curses", since their presence does not necessarily lead to
    an afflicted character`s destruction." And the entry under shapechanger
    (the reference you are obviously refering to) states "Rjurik shapechangers
    are not lycanthropes, and use entirely different rules." and "These
    individuals wander the land alone and are blessed (or, in the opinion of
    many, cursed) with the ability to transform into fearsome, wild creatures."
    >

    It does also say that dooms are special abilities that are not always seen
    as "Bad" depending on the doom in question.


    > There is no exclusion of lycanthropy as existing and the special doom,
    shapechanger, is an entirely different thing.


    I disagree. D&D pigeon holes lycanthropy to mean something, that doesn`t
    mean it means the same thing. If we want to draw on outcannon sources as you
    did, In Jakandor, one may play a shapeshifter because one has ancestors who
    are lycanthropes. It is not seen as a negative thing and though it works
    differently it is still roughtly considered lycanthropy.


    >

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  5. #15
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Sidhain" <sidhain@EARTHLINK.NET>
    Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 8:38 PM

    > The Celts campaign has nothing to do with Birthright.

    I think that all of Baker`s work on BR is dripping with Celtic flavor from
    start to finish. One can certainly construct a campaign without reference
    to its Celtic aspect, but arguing about the ideas behind the setting
    requires reference to Celtic ideas. The Celtic campaign sourcebook is not a
    bad place to go for gaming purposes.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  6. #16
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    There is a 4th level spell which can sort of cure Lycanthropy: Polymorph
    Other. Simply change the "natural" werewolf into a Human. ;-)


    Tony


    ----Original Message Follows----
    From: irdeggman <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

    destowe thanks for pointing out the sentence in the 3.0 MM, although it says
    "many" not "most" it is still an impotant note and a pretty major
    deviation from previous editions. It should be noted that it is still
    considered a magical disease (see PHB pg 42 and MM pg 219) but only
    "afflicted" lycanthropes can be cured of lycanthropy.

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  7. #17
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Kenneth Gauck" <kgauck@MCHSI.COM>
    To: <BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
    Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 9:01 PM
    Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] Lycanthropes [2#1745]


    > ----- Original Message -----
    > From: "Sidhain" <sidhain@EARTHLINK.NET>
    > Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 8:38 PM
    >
    > > The Celts campaign has nothing to do with Birthright.
    >
    > I think that all of Baker`s work on BR is dripping with Celtic flavor from
    > start to finish. One can certainly construct a campaign without reference
    > to its Celtic aspect, but arguing about the ideas behind the setting
    > requires reference to Celtic ideas. The Celtic campaign sourcebook is not
    a
    > bad place to go for gaming purposes.
    >


    It has heavily norse flavor too. I like the Celts book, I think it was a
    fine source, I just don`t think "just becuase its similar" makes it anything
    near canon for the setting.

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  8. #18
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Sidhain" <sidhain@EARTHLINK.NET>
    Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 1:39 AM


    > It has heavily norse flavor too. I like the Celts book, I think it was a
    > fine source, I just don`t think "just becuase its similar" makes it
    anything
    > near canon for the setting.

    Irdeggman didn`t say it was canon, he made an observation that it was
    illustrative. I think the Norse influence is largely confined to the
    Rjurik. The Celtic influence is universal. The sidhe themselves are
    strongly Celtic, as their name belies. Anuireans have a lot of Celitic
    names, but its at least possible to argue this is only aesthetic. The
    central struggle between the wilds and civilization (rule land up, sources
    go down) is a romanticized view of the struggle of the Celts against the
    Romans. Its obvious in the mental backround of the designers. I`m not
    nearly so enamored of Celtic culture, so my campaign does not stress many of
    these elements, but I can see them in the text.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  9. #19
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Birthright-L
    > The Rjurik Highlands also states "First, while called "dooms" in
    keeping with Rjurik culture and outlook, they are probably more accurately
    referred to as "curses", since their presence does not necessarily lead to
    an afflicted character`s destruction." And the entry under shapechanger
    (the reference you are obviously refering to) states "Rjurik shapechangers
    are not lycanthropes, and use entirely different rules." and "These
    individuals wander the land alone and are blessed (or, in the opinion of
    many, cursed) with the ability to transform into fearsome, wild creatures."
    >

    It does also say that dooms are special abilities that are not always seen
    as "Bad" depending on the doom in question.
    This treatment doesn't exist any where in the cannon material. It does say "When they are at their lowest, the Rjurik are wont to carry on about their "special dooms" and the irressistable fate that binds them and drags them to their inevitable end." Typically these dooms are seen as a physical manifestation of their inevitable and predestined end, hence they are not generally seen as a "good thing" regardless of the benefit they provide.


    > There is no exclusion of lycanthropy as existing and the special doom,
    shapechanger, is an entirely different thing.


    I disagree. D&D pigeon holes lycanthropy to mean something, that doesn`t
    mean it means the same thing. If we want to draw on outcannon sources as you
    did, In Jakandor, one may play a shapeshifter because one has ancestors who
    are lycanthropes. It is not seen as a negative thing and though it works
    differently it is still roughtly considered lycanthropy.

    But on pg 89 of the BRRB it lists lycanthrope as an AD&D monster appearing in Cerilia. When this is combined with the sections that I have already quoted from the Rjurik Highlands it is fairly easy to make the deduction that lycanthropes and those who have the special doom "shapechange" coexist.

    I agree with Kenneth on his interpretation of the special doom shapechange as being much more druidic in nature, even though it it much more restrictive (again as he pointed out).

    The reason for my citing the Celtic Sourcebook was as a means of getting a TSR historical view of where Baker & co. came up with their interpretation of the Rjurik. It was not to infer it was BR cannon material but rather a very useful reference. The Celtic Sourcebook's treatment of bards and druids is almost identical to that of the Rjurik Highlands. I especially like the write up in the Celtic Sourcebook about the polytheism of the Celtic druids, this really helps explain why Cerilian druids are not druids per say but clerics in a polytheistic society that have a greater worship of Erik than the other deities.

    So chill a little, all I was doing was pointing out my sources and defending myself from a perceived (while not necessarily true) attack on my lack of knowedge of the BR campaign material. Its time to back off (talking about myself) and be a little more "professional" in dealings on the board.:)
    Duane Eggert

  10. #20
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    When it comes to lycanthropy I kind of like the idea that the various types
    of shapeshifting that focus on animal forms exist on some sort of
    scale. That is, the special dooms of the Rjurik sourcebook would be the
    "mildest" type of shapeshifting, while inflicted lycanthropes would be more
    severe--and more corrupting--while natural lycanthropy would be characters
    who were born part of the were-race. It`s more productive, I think, and
    probably easier to put on a scale of CR/ECL values to break up the powers
    and capacities of the various types of shapeshifter/lycanthrope that way.

    Gary

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