[BIRTHRIGHT] Future BHistory

[Lawgiver]

Originally posted by Birthright-L
I attribute the low populations to plague, war, and famine. Even in the
European Middle-Ages the Plague was the most horrific thing to ever sweep
the world (killed more people than anything ever). Considering magic being
brought into the equation, I don`t have too much trouble conceding that
Cerilia`s population is pretty dang low.

Tony

"THE PLAGUES" killed an estimated 25 million people, roughly 1/3 of the population of Europe. 75 million people is hardly a comparable population value to Anuire.

[Magian]

>From: John Machin <trithemius@PARADISE.NET.NZ>
>I`ve been busy with my university course-work.

I understand, I am in school too studying for 3 degrees.


>I`m glad to hear that my relentless plugging of Ars Magica has had some
>effect one someone ;)
>I understand that the 4th Edition rules (the current edition) are freely
>downloadable now, but that there is a 5th edition somewhere in the
>works.

Could you send me the links when and if you find them, so that I may get
them? I must say for all those apparent history buffs on this list Ars
Magica seems to be a good source of RP opportunities for them.

__________________________________________________ _______________
MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[DanMcSorley]

On Thu, 19 Jun 2003, Lawgiver wrote:
> Lawgiver wrote:
>

Originally posted by Birthright-L
> I attribute the low populations to plague, war, and famine. Even in the
> European Middle-Ages the Plague was the most horrific thing to ever sweep
> the world (killed more people than anything ever). Considering magic being
> brought into the equation, I don`t have too much trouble conceding that
> Cerilia`s population is pretty dang low.
>

>
>
> "THE PLAGUES" killed an estimated 25 million people, roughly 1/3 of
> the population of Europe. 75 million people is hardly a comparable
> population value to Anuire.

France is about the right size. In 1340, the population of France was
about 24 million. The bubonic plague first reached western europe in
1347. It killed about a third of the population, which would leave about
16 million in France. I`ve tallied the provinces that comprise Anuire
before, they come out about 1.6 million people, I believe. Even if this
is supposed to be some kind of post-devestation Anuire, it`s way too low.
And there`s nothing in anything published to suggest that Anuire or
Cerilia was recently devestated.

The game-design explanation for this is that they wanted provinces to
start low so people could rule them up. One way to reconcile it with some
form of reality is to go with the reasoning that the provinces of Cerilia
really are all at their max population value, and the number in the
province rating represents how much the province owner can expect taxes
and fealty from. This also explains how it`s possible to rule them up so
fast, without the little Sim-Anuireans breeding like rapidly-maturing
rabbits.

I prefer to just adjust the province ratings up, and remove the Ruling of
provinces from the actions allowed to players. Population will go up and
down in its own good time, and they should just concern themselves with
their holdings.
--
Daniel McSorley

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[Birthright-L]

You seem to take great exception at my posts, so let me explain.

I`m not trying to be an authority....nor am I linking our world to a fantasy
one. I`m only putting out ideas; not topics that are intended for debate,
though that is fine too I guess. :-)

Along this topic, however, is the gaming tool of "Suspension of Disbelief"
that you (not you specifically) are striving for. The purpose of a game is
to have fun, but it is easier to have fun if it is easier to believe the
fantasy...ironically.

The reason that a campaign world will survive or fail is usually based
solely on this theory. I hate to say it, but the more "fantastic" a world
is, the less most players will enjoy it because it is so hard to relate to.

That is the only reason I try to emphasize some connection between game
world and real world...just enough to make the connection. Then I leave it
alone.

As for plague being part of any period, I`m afraid you are putting words in
my mouth. I simply said plague could be a reason....I didn`t say it was a
reason because it was a reason in THIS world. Again, I`m only making the
connection....not the rule.

If a plague does strike a nation, then with all the extra space they have
they really don`t need someone elses space. As a similarity: after the
Great Plague struck Europe, it entered a (relatively) peaceful period of
time.

Let me put a different spin on it. For connection: Holy Roman Empire. Very
fractious, didn`t really emerge as a true power despite its size. Finally
developed into several different nations only do to external pressure:
"Hmmmm....maybe we better become a real kingdom before our neighbors eat
us."

Cerilia....small "sub-continent" really. Not directly connected to another
landmass; Aduria counts, but is also fractionalized after the War of Shadow.
With no outside influences, there is no true need to unite: no migratory
nomads pressing the borders, only cultural ties binding any area together.
The Greek City-States never truly formed into a nation until absorbed by
external powers.

In Cerilia you also have the Awnsheigh which also cause disruption. The
Gorgon most certainly doesn`t want to see a united anything; much easier
prey when they are small. As old as he is, I`ve always played him as the
ultimate plotter. Most likely there isn`t a kingdom within many miles away
that doesn`t have his individual agents stirring the pot. Sure, he doesn`t
have a holding everywhere; but he doesn`t need one when suddenly the Baron
of Ghoere gets enough money to raise even more mercenaries and fight a
border war against Mhoried.....Gavin doesn`t suspect anything because his
wizard told him he made the money! So the Sword Mage does the Gorgon`s will
in exchange for a few ancient spells or an item or two; he doesn`t work for
the Gorgon, but nothing to stop him from trading (at a safe distance) with
him.

I could go on, but I hope you get the picture. If not: when you have a
nearly immortal force with his hand in everything, it is hard to get things
done when you are a short lived race that lives on average only fifty or so
years.

I can`t imagine myself that any part of Cerilia will emerge as a true
Kingdom until something is done about those pesky meddlers the
Awnsheigh.....so bring on the adventurers and get rid of them. ;-) That
was, after all things said, the intent of the Birthright world....was it
not?


Tony


----Original Message Follows----
From: Stephen Starfox <stephen_starfox@YAHOO.SE>

But the plague is not really a medieval thing. It came at the end of the
period, and pretty much caused the end of the period. Plague was such a
massive shock to the system that things HAD to change to compensate. Plague
did not create stability - it was a great promoter of change!


From: "Anthony Edwards" <anthony_c_edwards@HOTMAIL.COM>


> I attribute the low populations to plague, war, and famine. Even in the
> European Middle-Ages the Plague was the most horrific thing to ever sweep
> the world (killed more people than anything ever). Considering magic
being
> brought into the equation, I don`t have too much trouble conceding that
> Cerilia`s population is pretty dang low.
>
> Tony

__________________________________________________ _______________
MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[Birthright-L]

I liked what someone else mentioned about Magical Plague though. It is an
automatic thing that would just sweep entire provinces and nations. I`ve
also considered that, in comparison to earthly churches, the churches of
Cerilia would be more concerned about their prestige and power than the
actual well being of the masses. Not allowing for modern thought on the
topic, most churches were honestly more temporal than spiritual by a LONG
shot. How much more so when that church actually receives direct influence
through Commune spells! Holy wars were fought for less reason than a god
saying: "Go forth and kill my enemies to preserve my people!"

Because there isn`t even a unifying religion in any area (even if one faith
is more predominant), this is additional cause for regions to remain torn
and without unity.


Tony


----Original Message Follows----
From: Bjørn Eian Sørgjerd <bjorn.sorgjerd@C2I.NET>

In addition to The Plague (Black), ancient civilizations were constatly
threathened by lesser plagues.

Indeed, one might imagine that such things are not likely to happen in
Cerilia, where clerical realm magic is quite a bit more effective than
the prayers that were surely offered througout the plagues that swept
the Earth...

__________________________________________________ _______________
Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campa...gn.asp?cid=3963

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[Birthright-L]

I didn`t mention numbers....only the plague itself.

Even had I mentioned numbers, why would it not be a good comparison? If
Anuire suddenly lost 33% of its population, you don`t think it would have a
drastic effect?


Tony


----Original Message Follows----
From: Lawgiver <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Lawgiver wrote:

Originally posted by Birthright-L
I attribute the low populations to plague, war, and famine.
Even in the
European Middle-Ages the Plague was the most horrific thing to ever sweep
the world (killed more people than anything ever). Considering magic being
brought into the equation, I don`t have too much trouble conceding that
Cerilia`s population is pretty dang low.

Tony

"THE PLAGUES" killed an estimated 25 million people, roughly 1/3 of the
population of Europe. 75 million people is hardly a comparable population
value to Anuire.

__________________________________________________ _______________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[Barliman]

([_]

[Lawgiver]

I didn't mean to aid the digression into the plague discussion. I apologize.

The issue isn't the focus on the % of loss, but rather the starting and ending popluation of France relative to the starting and ending population of Anuire. The higher the population the more "minds" you have to develop new technology, the larger the workforce you have to fuel an economy, army, etc., the greater the tax base, the greater the diversity of sub-cultures. Anuire is roughly 6% the size of France, it obviously would not develop as quickly.

[Birthright-L]

> You seem to take great exception at my posts, so let me explain.
>

I love debate. When I see something I don`t agree with, or just think that I
can put a new and interesting angle on, I pounce. This is not because I
dislike the people I debate with - quite the opposite in fact! After all, if
it were not for you, I would have fewer people to debate with!

I agree with you in principle - fun is king, and "realism" matters in that
it can detract/add to fun.

The first thing to consider is genre. In epic "Tolkienesque" fantasy,
thousands of years routinely pass without much event. I often take exception
to it, and particularly in a chaotic world like Birthright. In a more
"realistic" genre, only empires are stable - interregnum periods are
inherently unstable. No royal claim can survive for 800 years separated from
it`s power. It`s like the idea that a revealed scion of Charlemagne could
assume the throne of France in the 17:the century.

What is right in some genres, is wrong in others. Each of us must decide
what to include in the genre that we use for our Birthright games - there is
really no right or wrong here.

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[r_johny]

> It`s been, what 500+ years?, and the chamberlain?(s) have refused to
> acknowledge ANY claim by any person in all that time. Obviously, legally
> the laws of succession involve far more than some tenuous claim to some
> shred of Roele bloodline. The TRUE Roele bloodline has been "missing"
> since the time of Michael. There`s a mystery / opportunity for you. What
> identifies the TRUE Roele line. How (or in fact is) the identification
> of such a signal (blood ability) passed down. Why is arguably, one of
> the most powerful blooded character on the Continent (and ALL his
> forebears if any) content to play a waiting game in the wings as 2IC?
>
>

And ths is the silly part.Having a bloodine survive for 800 years with noone
knowing about it worked in Tolkien, where Aragorn`s forbears survived in a
wasteland. there is no such isolated place for someone with a bloodline
strength of 80+ to hide in. And I don`t picture Anuire as quite that
conservative. Remember that Gondor felt no real need for a king. It was only
when the opportunity arose that the wanted Aragon back. And LoTR is a lot
more legend-like to me than Birthright.

But I guess it`s a matter of personal taste.
------------------------

i seem to remember that in both editions you can actually store your blood line in an object or section of the ground, Roele's descendents could easily have died out long ago while the blood abilities were stored by an heir for someone worthy of them.

in fact it wouldn't be too unlikely for the chamberlins to know about this and simply feel that no worthy contenders have arrived