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  1. #11
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    On Tue, 17 Jun 2003, The Magian wrote:
    > >That`s interesting, because I`ve thought that inventions tend to drive
    > >social change. Triremes made Athens a democracy.
    >
    > Wasn`t it the philosophy of the times that made democracy popular?

    Chicken and the egg- the oarsmen of the triremes were numerous and drawn
    from the non-landed classes of Greece, and they demanded and got political
    power. Some philosophers of the times referred to them derisively as the
    mob, following their whims, so in answer to your question, I don`t think
    that was necessarily so.

    > >The stirrup helped lead to feudalism.
    >
    > Without the idea of chivalry how far would the stirrup have gone?

    The mongols conquored most of Asia and into eastern Europe with the
    stirrup, their recurved bows, and no concept of chivalry. Chivalry
    doesn`t necessarily follow from having horse-mounted warriors, though it
    did in Europe, and it might have in the Mongol Empire had they lasted long
    enough to get stable.

    In Europe, chivalry developed after the mounted warrior became
    predominant. When a stirrupped (is that a word? heh) horseman became the
    most powerful military unit, social and political structures developed to
    support him, giving him land and wealth to provide the horses and
    expensive equipment he needed. The chivalric ideal came rather later.

    > >The printing press knocked down monolithic religion in
    > >western Europe.
    >
    > OK, but it was the ideas that the presses brought to others that brought
    > the change.

    The ideas had been around for quite a while. The Catholic church had no
    shortage of detractors, from a few centuries AD on, but it wasn`t until
    the means of disseminating the ideas came along that anything happened
    about it.

    > >Guns did away with the aristocracy, first indirectly (by
    > >making wealthy landowners less useful militarily & politically) and then
    > >rather more directly :).
    >
    > Political ideologies drove the persons with the guns to shoot at who
    > they shot at.

    When you have a weapon, and are oppressed, it`s not a political ideology
    that makes you kill your oppressor.
    --
    Daniel McSorley

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  2. #12
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Daniel McSorley" <mcsorley@OKKOD.PAIR.COM>
    Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 11:57 AM



    > That`s interesting, because I`ve thought that inventions tend to drive
    > social change.

    We have a lot of examples where a technology arrived which the social order
    couldn`t use so discarded. Printing presses were invented earlier, there
    are several ancinet examples, but without a high literacy rate, no one
    invests in such a device and it languishes as a curiousity. Had the
    printing press come to Europe in a 15th century in which the church was
    strong and robust, rather than divided and discredited, it probabaly would
    have sealed Europe into a single faith permenantly. The arrival of the
    press was reliant on social conditions that would accept a press (sufficient
    literacy), and had an impact that intensified already existing social
    structures, be that religious division (historical) or religious unity
    (hypothetically).

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  3. #13
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    On Tue, 17 Jun 2003, Kenneth Gauck wrote:
    > We have a lot of examples where a technology arrived which the social order
    > couldn`t use so discarded. Printing presses were invented earlier, there
    > are several ancinet examples, but without a high literacy rate, no one
    > invests in such a device and it languishes as a curiousity. Had the
    > printing press come to Europe in a 15th century in which the church was
    > strong and robust, rather than divided and discredited, it probabaly would
    > have sealed Europe into a single faith permenantly. The arrival of the
    > press was reliant on social conditions that would accept a press (sufficient
    > literacy), and had an impact that intensified already existing social
    > structures, be that religious division (historical) or religious unity
    > (hypothetically).

    So had the printing press not been widely adopted at that time, to aid
    pamphleteers and reformists, do you think the schism in the church could
    have healed?

    I think maybe we don`t ascribe as much importance to technological
    advances that solidify the then-current social order as to those which
    accelerate change. Hell, I`m even having trouble coming up with an
    example. Maybe the roman aqueducts, which were really important, but
    `all` they did was strengthen roman power in the cities they already ruled
    and could build to. So we don`t think of them as having been terribly
    important.
    --
    Daniel McSorley

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  4. #14
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    I don`t think there`s a difference between sociological and technological
    advances the way it`s been presented. They may not always be in absolute
    alignment with one another, but sociological change is easily viewed as "the
    technology of society" and would then just fit in as a category of progress
    along with metallurgy, agriculture or electronics. Some advances in
    technological fields lead to social developments, some social developments
    lead to technical advances. It`s a mutual push-pull just as other
    categories of technology act on one another. Better metallurgy leads to
    improved mining techniques which leads to better ore production which
    improves metallurgy again. A slow rise in literacy creates the need for the
    printing press which in turn improves literacy and increases the need for
    even better printing presses. Drawing a distinction between technology and
    social development is artificial, and doesn`t reflect anything meaningful
    about society or technology. In fact, it disassociates the forces that are
    in reality part of an interactive system.

    Gary

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  5. #15
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Daniel McSorley" <mcsorley@OKKOD.PAIR.COM>
    Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 12:33 PM


    > Chicken and the egg- the oarsmen of the triremes were numerous and drawn
    > from the non-landed classes of Greece, and they demanded and got political
    > power. Some philosophers of the times referred to them derisively as the
    > mob, following their whims, so in answer to your question, I don`t think
    > that was necessarily so.

    The institution of the Ekklesia (assembly) had to preceed the radical
    democracy. The instritution of the phalanx, and the land tenure that
    proceeded it, had to preceed the radical democracy in order to establish the
    radical one. Radical democracy, or hoplite democracy for that matter,
    require a political institution of a certain size, the city state or
    smaller. Other societies invented all of the relevant technologies, why did
    they not become radical democracies the way Athens did?

    So its very reasonable to presume that the styles of governance of Endier,
    Ilien, and Cariele would be different, and more assembly based than realms
    like Avanil, Ghoere, or Alamie. Medieval cities also had town based
    assemblies, largly dominated and coterminous with the guilds, since guild
    membership was also generally a prerequisite to city citizenship (as opposed
    to residence).

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  6. #16
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Daniel McSorley" <mcsorley@OKKOD.PAIR.COM>
    Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 1:40 PM


    > So had the printing press not been widely adopted at that time, to aid
    > pamphleteers and reformists, do you think the schism in the church could
    > have healed?

    The church was already broken, states were setting up their own Popes (the
    Babylonian Captivity being only the most celebrated establishment of what
    were many anti-popes), heresies were linking up with national, political,
    and social cleavages, encouraging their durability. That someone would come
    along to make a final break and declare independence from the broader church
    was inevitable.

    > I think maybe we don`t ascribe as much importance to technological
    > advances that solidify the then-current social order as to those which
    > accelerate change.

    Pointing to the A-bomb and pronouncing that it changed warfare forever is
    glamorous. Pointing to aqueducts and saying that urbanization was
    facilitated by clean water and irrigation of rich soils isn`t so much.
    Neither is pointing to the long scientific build-up to either A-bombs or
    aqueducts and understanding that they are based on a culture of science,
    scientific processes, an understanding of the periodic table, the concept of
    the chain reaction, &c &c &c.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  7. #17
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Gary Foss" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>
    Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 2:06 PM


    > I don`t think there`s a difference between sociological and technological
    > advances the way it`s been presented. They may not always be in absolute
    > alignment with one another, but sociological change is easily viewed as
    "the
    > technology of society" and would then just fit in as a category of
    progress
    > along with metallurgy, agriculture or electronics.

    If you make certain assumptions, yes. Focusing on the technology itself can
    give the impression that one might be a strong advocate that only technology
    is relevant.

    > Some advances in technological fields lead to social developments,
    > some social developments lead to technical advances. It`s a mutual
    > push-pull just as other categories of technology act on one another.

    That`s because in fact technology is just another catagory of ideas, like
    practices, values, and organizing principles. But its important to
    distinguish the difference having rifles (Amerindians) and producing rifles
    (settlers of European decent). Some games allow technology to move in a
    vacuum. The Indians get the rifle technology and can produce riflemen.
    That`s not what happened. the Indians got rifles and their traditional
    hunters became much more effective in the killing business. If technology
    alone is considered, we can`t explain these kinds of things. If we view
    technology as a cultural process (metalurgy) connected to other cultural
    elements (financing forges) and simply call this the iron age, thats fine.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  8. #18
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    From: "Kenneth Gauck" <kgauck@MCHSI.COM>

    > Germany perpetuated itself as a realm of small states for hundreds of
    years.
    > Anuire probabaly has partable inheritance so that a generation after
    Avanil
    > and Alamie were united, the elder son would get Avanil and the younger
    would
    > get Alamie. Within realms, one son gets the big title, and other children
    > are either set up in other holdings, or they are made counts and get a
    > province plus estates in other places. Its one of the reasons that there
    is
    > not much land directly held by the regent. The fact that daughters appear
    > in the geneologies of the various dynasties makes it easy to both forge
    > theses alliances and yet maintain a sense that the current heir of realm x
    > is a direct decendent of founder x.
    >

    Germany was never stabilized, but any of a huge numbers of pretenders to
    power could have unified it at any point. That this was not done can be seen
    as an on the European political stage - since states like France, England,
    and Spain united. On the other hand, Italy and Scandinavia also failed to
    unite (Scandinavia is still three countries at least as similar as north and
    south Italy, and these were actually in union during much of the 14:the
    century), so there are examples pointing both ways. Part of the problem for
    Italy and Germany was that they WERE formally united in the Holy Roman
    Empire - a nation so large and diverse that it couldn`t function.

    In Birthright, the empire described in Roele`s day is far too similar to the
    empire of "today" to be historically credible. We are never given any
    details of Anuire in the period between Roele the last emperor and the
    present. This is a very long period (800 years, if I remember right), and a
    lot could/should happen in this time. This is the time from Charlemagne to
    Louis XIV. It IS possible for a nation to fail to stabilize in such a time
    frame, but I find it unlikely. Remember that Anuire is still and culturally
    rather homogenous - it is equivalent to France, not to Europe. If the
    ambition had been to unite Rjurik and Anuire into ONE empire, I believe the
    situation would be closer to that of Germany.

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  9. #19
    Site Moderator Magian's Avatar
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    >Daniel McSorley wrote:
    >Chicken and the egg- the oarsmen of the triremes were numerous and drawn
    >from the non-landed classes of Greece, and they demanded and got political
    >power. Some philosophers of the times referred to them derisively as the
    >mob, following their whims, so in answer to your question, I don`t think
    >that was necessarily so.
    >

    I don`t that it is a case of the chicken and the egg. A man must have some
    ideas before he acts, even to make a boat with oars or demand anything from
    anyone. Your premise about the philosophers is true but let`s clarify that
    it is limited to some as you said. As for saying it was necessarily so,
    this is like saying it cannot be otherwise concluded and I did not say this,
    for as far as I am concerned there is nothing in the realm of ideas that
    cannot have more than one possible conclusion, including this argument.

    >The mongols conquored most of Asia and into eastern Europe with the
    >stirrup, their recurved bows, and no concept of chivalry. Chivalry
    >doesn`t necessarily follow from having horse-mounted warriors, though it
    >did in Europe, and it might have in the Mongol Empire had they lasted long
    >enough to get stable.
    >

    Again with the necessarily so logic. I agree that chivalry is not necessary
    to the cultural development in direct relation to the stirrup. However the
    mongols had their own form of culture and honor system like all cultures.
    It may not have been based on chivalry but it was their and the warrior was
    the center of the theme.

    >In Europe, chivalry developed after the mounted warrior became
    >predominant. When a stirrupped (is that a word? heh) horseman became the
    >most powerful military unit, social and political structures developed to
    >support him, giving him land and wealth to provide the horses and
    >expensive equipment he needed. The chivalric ideal came rather later.
    >

    After the success of the sitrrup? Okay but didn`t the romanticism keep the
    stirrup alive in culture? Even if I yield that chivalry was an effect of
    the stirrup, the stirrup didn`t come about a priori.

    > > >The printing press knocked down monolithic religion in
    > > >western Europe.
    > >
    > > OK, but it was the ideas that the presses brought to others that brought
    > > the change.
    >
    >The ideas had been around for quite a while. The Catholic church had no
    >shortage of detractors, from a few centuries AD on, but it wasn`t until
    >the means of disseminating the ideas came along that anything happened
    >about it.

    Yes, but it was the ideas that made the change in the minds of the people.
    The currency of how ideas get spread is a tool not a cause of change. The
    press in its infancy originated as an idea.


    >
    >When you have a weapon, and are oppressed, it`s not a political ideology
    >that makes you kill your oppressor.
    >--

    Yes it is, feminism, marksism, afro-centrism, dramatism, and cultural
    critiques are forms of ideological criticism that all developed from
    oppression. Through these ideologies a person can look at the world and as
    a result change their view and become motivated to make change, e.g.
    revolutionaries pointing guns at their oppressors.

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  10. #20
    Senior Member Trithemius's Avatar
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    Stephen Starfox says:
    > In Birthright, the empire described in Roele`s day is far too
    > similar to the empire of "today" to be historically credible.
    > We are never given any details of Anuire in the period
    > between Roele the last emperor and the present. This is a
    > very long period (800 years, if I remember right), and a lot
    > could/should happen in this time. This is the time from
    > Charlemagne to Louis XIV. It IS possible for a nation to fail
    > to stabilize in such a time frame, but I find it unlikely.
    > Remember that Anuire is still and culturally rather
    > homogenous - it is equivalent to France, not to Europe. If
    > the ambition had been to unite Rjurik and Anuire into ONE
    > empire, I believe the situation would be closer to that of Germany.

    We should also recall that Anuire is subject to some cultural pressures
    that historical Europe was not.

    The Roele dynasty can claim, on far more solid grounds than any
    historical monarch, to have a divine mandate. We should also remember
    that the patron deity of the Anuireans is also the patron of monarchs.
    This is likely to prompt Anuireans towards greater respect for and
    obedience to the imperial `centre`.

    (P.S. Hi everybody! ;))

    --
    John Machin
    (trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
    -----------------------------------
    "Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
    Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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