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  1. #11
    Site Moderator Ariadne's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Kalien

    3. Elves are definitely a +1 ECL race, but not because they have +2 to Charisma. They are a +1 ECL race due to the other racial abilities they possess that make them a 'tougher' race than those presented in the PHB. A +2 bonus to Charisma does not by itself make Half Elves a +1 ECL race and I didn't think the other abilities I gave them warranted an ECL penalty.

    4. IMO Halflings are an ECL race because the abilities they possess make them a 'tougher' race than that presented in the PHB. (Note that they still have all the abilities contained in the PHB). While some of the abilities they gain are of limited utility (such as detect undead or detect necromantic magic) others are potentially game altering and significantly affect the survivability of the race (such as dimension door and shadow walking).
    Really, where is something that makes ELVES an ECL race? This is normally only an idea made by those who hate elves and try to create some disadvantages so that nobody chooses it... Halflings? Maybe, because of their dimension door and shadow walk ability. But IMO there must be a lot more to make dwarves or elves ECL races (wings for elves(Avariel), that's a reason...)...
    May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!

  2. #12
    Kalien
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    Originally posted by Ariadne
    Really, where is something that makes ELVES an ECL race? This is normally only an idea made by those who hate elves and try to create some disadvantages so that nobody chooses it... Halflings? Maybe, because of their dimension door and shadow walk ability. But IMO there must be a lot more to make dwarves or elves ECL races (wings for elves(Avariel), that's a reason...)...
    Actually, I like Elves and I like playing them, so to suggest that I might be trying to make it so that nobody wants to play them strikes me as rather presumptuous. ;)

    I made them a +1 ECL race because the abilities I gave them made them more powerful than the PHB version of Elves and more powerful than a non-ECL race such as humans. It's as simple as that.

    Not being able to track elves during game play is a significant advantage IMO, giving them freedom to raid and disappear. Being able to move freely through any terrain is also a significant advantage simply because no one else can keep up with them as soon as they get out of open terrain - and once out of open terrain and out of sight you can't track them. That is not an insignificant ability IMO.

    Throw in more minor abilities such as additional resistances and a bonus to Charisma and I think the version of Elves I made deserve a +1 ECL.

    Compare them to other +1 ECL races such as Aasimar and I think they stack up reasonably well.

  3. #13
    Site Moderator Ariadne's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Kalien

    Not being able to track elves during game play is a significant advantage IMO, giving them freedom to raid and disappear. Being able to move freely through any terrain is also a significant advantage simply because no one else can keep up with them as soon as they get out of open terrain - and once out of open terrain and out of sight you can't track them. That is not an insignificant ability IMO.
    I thought that's only usable in natural terrain like forrest or desert. Near a city they can't use it. So it might be a nice ability, but IMO not this hard to create a +1 ECL.

    Compare them to other +1 ECL races such as Aasimar and I think they stack up reasonably well.
    Yes, I always wanted to know why they get a +1 ECL... ;)
    IMO only because of the energy resistance...
    May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!

  4. #14
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    That's not how disease is described in 3e where races or classes have resistance to disease (e.g., as paladins and monks do). If that is how they are going to be described in 3.5 then I will change the description but otherwise I'll leave it as is.
    Actually, I'd say the terms used in the PHB in this case are unclear and a bit of a throwback. Diseases, according to the DMG, are either extraordinary or supernatural in type - the use of the term "magical" can be confusing - it'd lead some to believe that Elves aren't immune to the diseases inflicted by the contagion spell, even though those diseases are all extraordinary. Also, the Elven ability is weaker than the paladin one, AFAIK - paladins are immune to the lot, Elves still are affected by the supernatural (i.e. "magical") brands.

    I thought the +2 Charisma bonus was nice as it provides a bonus to social interaction skills without having a power-gaming effect such as improved saving throws, hit points, attack rolls, etc. It only adds "power" in these terms if the Half-Elf takes levels in a class that has Charisma-based spellcasting abilities - and as I personally see Half-Elves in BR having a tendency towards these classes anyway (bards & sorcerers) I didn't see it as a large problem. And it reflects their unearthly beauty inherited from their sidhe parent (as described in the BR Rulebook).
    This is probably more of a problem than it at first appears to be. Note that none of the races in the PHB have a bonus to a spellcasting stat - and there are precious few races beyond the core races that have bonuses to their spellcasting stats and no level adjustment, as well. Simply put, a bonus to charisma tends to provide a stronger class bias than most ability bonuses do. Dexterity and constitution are useful for all classes; charisma less so. In terms of power equivalent, a boost to a spellcasting stat is pretty powerful - it's the equivalent of having half a spell focus feat in each school of magic (there are indications that the 3.5e designers are changing spell focus to +1, which would, IMO, be a mistake), for instance, along with bonus spells per day. This change'd mean there's very little reason to play a half-elf ranger, for instance, but all the more reason to play a half-elf bard or sorcerer. Essentially, you'll wind up nullifying the one aspect of half-elves that reflects their human heritage - the multiclassing aspect. Since they're better as sorcerers or bards than anything else (then again, there are paladins) and multiclassing in those classes is even less attractive than most other classes, I think that the multiclassing bonus'd see very little usage. Beefing up half-elves is a good idea, but a +2 charisma bonus is also a bit much.
    Jan E. Juvstad.

  5. #15
    Kalien
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    Originally posted by Mark_Aurel
    This is probably more of a problem than it at first appears to be. Note that none of the races in the PHB have a bonus to a spellcasting stat - and there are precious few races beyond the core races that have bonuses to their spellcasting stats and no level adjustment, as well. Simply put, a bonus to charisma tends to provide a stronger class bias than most ability bonuses do. Dexterity and constitution are useful for all classes; charisma less so. In terms of power equivalent, a boost to a spellcasting stat is pretty powerful - it's the equivalent of having half a spell focus feat in each school of magic (there are indications that the 3.5e designers are changing spell focus to +1, which would, IMO, be a mistake), for instance, along with bonus spells per day. This change'd mean there's very little reason to play a half-elf ranger, for instance, but all the more reason to play a half-elf bard or sorcerer. Essentially, you'll wind up nullifying the one aspect of half-elves that reflects their human heritage - the multiclassing aspect. Since they're better as sorcerers or bards than anything else (then again, there are paladins) and multiclassing in those classes is even less attractive than most other classes, I think that the multiclassing bonus'd see very little usage. Beefing up half-elves is a good idea, but a +2 charisma bonus is also a bit much.
    I don't see the Charisma bonus as that much of a problem, Marc, so we might just have to agree to disagree on this one.

    It is true that it gives the Half Elf an advantage as a sorcerer or bard, but in my experience very few players opt to play a sorcerer when they can play a wizard in Birthright. It would give a +1 to all Charisma-based skill checks - of which the sorcerer has none as class skills. It's benefits to a Half Elven bard would be more marked, but it's not as though the bard is an overpowered class to start with.

    A charisma bonus is also useful to Paladins and Clerics, so I don't see it as forcing Half Elves down a certain path. In a politically oriented game it gives Half Elves a boost in diplomatic skills, which gives the Half Elf an impetus to play a class which has the ability to focus on these areas, such as a bard or rogue.

    And I don't see many players declining to play Half Elven rangers, wizards, and fighters just because the race has a +2 Charisma bonus. I can possibly see more players opting to play Half Elves because they now appear a little bit more fey and beautiful like their elven parent - more Elven, if you will, in a way that is distinctive and visible.

    I did consider giving them a +2 Dexterity bonus at one point, but decided against that as I thought a Dexterity bonus would be too 'powerful' in that it affects a number of what might be considered life-saving stats such as AC and Reflex saving throws. Charisma, IMO, has less of an impact while Half Elves apart from those not of sidhe blood.

  6. #16
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    Kalien wrote:

    >This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
    > You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1699
    >Kalien wrote:
    >...
    >I don`t see the Charisma bonus as that much of a problem, Marc, so we might just have to agree to disagree on this one.
    >It is true that it gives the Half Elf an advantage as a sorcerer or bard, but in my experience very few players opt to play a sorcerer when they can play a wizard in Birthright. It would give a +1 to all Charisma-based skill checks - of which the sorcerer has none as class skills. It`s benefits to a Half Elven bard would be more marked, but it`s not as though the bard is an overpowered class to start with.
    >
    Especially, if the Bard used is as restricted in his spellcasting as the
    2E Bard was in Birthright and has not new divine healing powers...
    bye
    Michael Romes

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