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Thread: Birthright Gods

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    I have been reading the Manual of the Planes and the new Birthright rulebook so have created a map for the planes of existance in my Birthright Campaign. When I considered the outlands and how they worked and the concept of the True bloodline I thought that it may be interesting to define how the rules for Gods work.

    I haven't developed the idea too far, but would be interested in comments with regard to rules such as:

    A character with True bloodline is eligible to have a number of True blood Abilities (depending on bloodline strength - number to be defined) and could select that number from the following blood abilities (each would have a bloodline cost):

    True Outland Creation - Scion can create a realm of existance from any unused Outland space - this becomes the scion's Godly realm.

    True Pertitioner Creation - ...

    True bestow reincarnation -

    True Creation of Avatar -

    True meld soul into Godly Realm -

    True Bind Soul to godly realm -

    True Planar Travel -

    True Contest Godly realm -

    True Create Godly Leiutenant -

    Create Divine link - allows scions clerics to cast Divine Spells

    Create negative/positive link - allows scions followers to access pos/neg planes for creation of undead etc

    Create link to Earth/Fire/Water/Air Planes - etc

    As you can see I haven't developed this thought too far, but the idea was to treat the gods as Mega Regents and have them interracting with each other (and some with the piddling mortals). The rules don't explain how getting True bloodlines at the battle of Dreismar cuased god-like powers. The Agashewan (sp) are those who don't have the Planar travel or create Godly realm abilties - thus trapped to Cerrilia. Any Comments?

    Gav
    Gav

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    In principal I prefer the Birthright Cosmology presented in the 2. Edition "On Hallowed Ground, Planescape" sourcebook

    I don't like the idea of a possibility for planar travel. Cerilia was always defined as "cut off" from the rest of the planes. One should limit the ability to enter the outer realms, not support it.


    True Outland Creation - Scion can create a realm of existance from any unused Outland space - this becomes the scion's Godly realm.


    This violates the Birthright flair and makes a scion to mighty.


    True bestow reincarnation

    Also to powerful, the rise dead or reincarnation ability should also be limited.


    True Planar Travel -

    The planar travel should be definitly restricted.


    Nice ideas, but you have to be careful not to end in a Planescape campaign instead of a Birthright campaign.
    my purpose is now to lead you into the Pallace where you shall have a clear and delightful view of all those various objects, and scattered excellencies, that lye up and down upon the face of creation, which are only seen by those that go down into the Seas, and by no other....

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    Site Moderator Ariadne's Avatar
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    Cool idea, but not a bit hard? Even for true blood abilities? Remember, most True blooded are still no quasi deities or demi gods (all are none apart from the Serpent and the Gorgon)...
    May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!

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    << In principal I prefer the Birthright Cosmology presented in the 2.
    Edition "On Hallowed Ground, Planescape" sourcebook
    >>

    Can you describe it for me? I don`t have that book.

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    I don't see the issue with most of the comments. Don't you guys use the Gods Haelyn, Nesire, Erik, Rournil etc. These are the scions I refer to who would have True bloodlines. I know that they are pretty powerful, but I thought the idea was that the gods of Birthright were quite powerful.

    My take on the issue is that the old gods died and the new gods were created from mortals exposed to the old gods blood essence (True presumably). That's what gave them the "Power" to create their own realms and have divine followers. I want to extend the rules to explain how the gods powers work. The gods were humans once and gained godhood. So although unlikely it is possible for a mortal to travel to the outlands and create their own realm. If two gods fought each other and mortals were present when another god died then I need rules to cover what happens to the newly created "demi-god".

    I hope to use the return of the Cold Rider to be a catalyst for a renewed war between the gods and are therofore developing the mechanics. Indeed a non-scion campaign is effected by the scemes of regents - so when the players become powerful regents they must still bow to the scemes of the gods.

    I make no comment on how you choose to run your campaign (no planar travel, no gods - whatever). I merely ask whether anyone else has any ideas to help me develop my thoughts further. For example I would add another column "True" to table 2-2 of the First Release Playtest Rules for Birthright with 1 starting at bloodscore 24 and an extra 1 each 8 bloodscore. This would mean that a bloodscore of 100 True (a weaker god) would get 10 True Bloodpowers (and lots of Great, Major and minor). In addition I would have Godly Actions (another type like standard, court, character) that only those of True bloodline could use - such as Godly Rule - Which can allow the God to spend large sums of RP to increase the power of his godly realm.

    As a DM I would use this concept to run the gods as NPCs - with interesting results if one god was busy and chose not to provide a service to his followers (such as divine link) for a short period for some reason. I could also track what happens to the dead. The new Birthright rules p87 say that a pertitioner can dice with Sera in her realm "The Marketplace Eternal" with a prize of gaining reincarnation (under my rules a Godly Action)so I am considering running a short group of sessions for dead charcters (as there are quite a few over the last 5 years) and need to know "where they stand" before I start.

    Gav
    Gav

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    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by gav

    I don't see the issue with most of the comments. Don't you guys use the Gods Haelyn, Nesire, Erik, Rournil etc. These are the scions I refer to who would have True bloodlines. I know that they are pretty powerful, but I thought the idea was that the gods of Birthright were quite powerful.

    My take on the issue is that the old gods died and the new gods were created from mortals exposed to the old gods blood essence (True presumably). That's what gave them the "Power" to create their own realms and have divine followers. I want to extend the rules to explain how the gods powers work. The gods were humans once and gained godhood. So although unlikely it is possible for a mortal to travel to the outlands and create their own realm. If two gods fought each other and mortals were present when another god died then I need rules to cover what happens to the newly created "demi-god".

    I hope to use the return of the Cold Rider to be a catalyst for a renewed war between the gods and are therofore developing the mechanics. Indeed a non-scion campaign is effected by the scemes of regents - so when the players become powerful regents they must still bow to the scemes of the gods.

    I make no comment on how you choose to run your campaign (no planar travel, no gods - whatever). I merely ask whether anyone else has any ideas to help me develop my thoughts further. For example I would add another column "True" to table 2-2 of the First Release Playtest Rules for Birthright with 1 starting at bloodscore 24 and an extra 1 each 8 bloodscore. This would mean that a bloodscore of 100 True (a weaker god) would get 10 True Bloodpowers (and lots of Great, Major and minor). In addition I would have Godly Actions (another type like standard, court, character) that only those of True bloodline could use - such as Godly Rule - Which can allow the God to spend large sums of RP to increase the power of his godly realm.

    As a DM I would use this concept to run the gods as NPCs - with interesting results if one god was busy and chose not to provide a service to his followers (such as divine link) for a short period for some reason. I could also track what happens to the dead. The new Birthright rules p87 say that a pertitioner can dice with Sera in her realm "The Marketplace Eternal" with a prize of gaining reincarnation (under my rules a Godly Action)so I am considering running a short group of sessions for dead charcters (as there are quite a few over the last 5 years) and need to know "where they stand" before I start.

    Gav
    I would recommend using Deities and Demigods vice manual of the planes to capture how to best describe a god. There are options in that book that describe different methods of divinity including a small write up on gods that die.

    IMO I see no real correlation between a god an a true blood line. What I mean is that gods' blood is not difined in terms of blood strength, it is beyond being "true", more of a "pure" divine blood if you will. The gods are not scions, that was not presented in the 2nd ed BRRB nor was it presented in the playtest version - and it was not intended that they be described as scions (at least in the playtest version).

    The present deities are not "carbon copies" of the old ones, Haelyn is not Anduiras reincarnated but the one who was the closest to him both physically and philosophically. How could Khrisha, Belinik and the Cold Rider all be Azrai reincarnated? I tend to view them as each having an aspect of Azrai but not the whole, even though the Cold Rider is the closest to the evil that was Azrai and could easily be made into Azrai reborn if desired.

    Note that both in 2nd ed and the proposed version a character can never "acquire" a true blood line except through direct investiture, not blood theft nor raising of blood score via regency.

    I think that what you are describing as True blood powers are best though of as salient divine abilites (again see Deities and Demigods) and would probably be best described using that book. Also it is already written and is an "Official" WotC D&D product which makes using it a whole lot easier and consistent with D&D rules than trying to create your own system.

    As proposed in the playtest version all planer travel passes through the shadow world so that is an important aspect to keep in mind. I only use this since you brought up the playtest version as a source for the planes you are attempting to capture.

    As far as adding more blood abilities, most of the comments I've seen on this one pretty much think that the playtest version granted too many blood abilities at high blood scores and the very bottom had too few. So IMO this would translate into not adding more blood abilities but rather lowering the table (or equivalent method).

    Deities and Demigods uses divine ranks to determine the amount of abilites that a deity gains. This reflects their individual power and number of followers, etc. When we put together the playtest verrsion we deliberatly removed any references to books other than the core 3 (PHB, MM and DMG) that would make them "required" sources to play since not everyone internationally would have equal access to them, also it gets expensive buying these products. This does not mean that they can't be used nor that they shouldn't be used in an individual campaign. For example if a campaign has characters that are reaching 20th level they should definitely use the Epic Level Handbook but that was not for us to dictate.
    :)
    Duane Eggert

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    Originally posted by Birthright-L
    Can you describe it for me? I don`t have that book.
    In this book all gods have their places in the known layers of the multiverse, e.g. Cuiraecen has a domain in the Battle Fields.
    my purpose is now to lead you into the Pallace where you shall have a clear and delightful view of all those various objects, and scattered excellencies, that lye up and down upon the face of creation, which are only seen by those that go down into the Seas, and by no other....

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    I don't see the issue with most of the comments. Don't you guys use the Gods Haelyn, Nesire, Erik, Rournil etc. These are the scions I refer to who would have True bloodlines. I know that they are pretty powerful, but I thought the idea was that the gods of Birthright were quite powerful.

    The Birthright gods are not powerful compared to gods of other worlds.


    My take on the issue is that the old gods died and the new gods were created from mortals exposed to the old gods blood essence (True presumably). That's what gave them the "Power" to create their own realms and have divine followers. I want to extend the rules to explain how the gods powers work. The gods were humans once and gained godhood. So although unlikely it is possible for a mortal to travel to the outlands and create their own realm. If two gods fought each other and mortals were present when another god died then I need rules to cover what happens to the newly created "demi-god".

    The "new" gods differ from the old ones. I don't want any rules about "Demigods" or godfights. You misunderstand the flair of the campaign. Deismaar was only the campaign background, no need to reproduce some rules there.


    I hope to use the return of the Cold Rider to be a catalyst for a renewed war between the gods and are therofore developing the mechanics. Indeed a non-scion campaign is effected by the scemes of regents - so when the players become powerful regents they must still bow to the scemes of the gods.

    The Cold RIder is not of any interest for the gods, same holds for the Gorgon. Take into account that the Cold Rider is only an Awnsheglien.


    I make no comment on how you choose to run your campaign (no planar travel, no gods - whatever).

    THis is not my Campaign, it is the official and original definition of the Birthright game designers.


    As a DM I would use this concept to run the gods as NPCs - with interesting results if one god was busy and chose not to provide a service to his followers (such as divine link) for a short period for some reason. I could also track what happens to the dead. The new Birthright rules p87 say that a pertitioner can dice with Sera in her realm "The Marketplace Eternal" with a prize of gaining reincarnation (under my rules a Godly Action)so I am considering running a short group of sessions for dead charcters (as there are quite a few over the last 5 years) and need to know "where they stand" before I start.


    See ya in the FOrgotten Realms. Keep away with such rules in the Birthright campaigns...

    Regards
    my purpose is now to lead you into the Pallace where you shall have a clear and delightful view of all those various objects, and scattered excellencies, that lye up and down upon the face of creation, which are only seen by those that go down into the Seas, and by no other....

  9. #9
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    ---- Original Message -----
    From: "Azrai" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>
    Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 5:24 AM


    > The Birthright gods are not powerful compared to gods of other worlds.

    Says who? I give Haelyn a divine rank of 19, akin to Zeus or Odin, and
    better than the 15 of Heironeous.

    > The "new" gods have differ from the old ones. I don`t want any rules
    > about "Demigods" or godfights. You misunderstand the flair of the
    > campaign. Deismaar was only the campaign background, no need to
    > reproduce some rules there.

    I have no problem with irdeggman`s suggestion. I don`t personally feel I
    need rules for the death of a god, but it would certainly make a campaign
    set at the time of Deismaar a challenge if there simply were no rules for
    such things.

    > The Cold Rider is not of any interest for the gods, same holds for the
    > Gorgon. Take into account that the Cold Rider is only an Awnsheglien.

    Is this opinion passing as fact? AFAIC, the Cold Rider is the son of
    Kriesha and Belinik, so hence is a god. Many of these things were left
    open-ended and intentionally vague so that DM`s could go a variety of
    different directions. That pregnency is a good thing. The Cold Rider
    should not be to narrowly defined, but left a mystery so that I can do one
    thing in my campaign and someone else can use the his return to facilitate
    another Diesmaar event. That`s flexibility.

    > See ya in the FOrgotten Realms. Keep away with such rules in the
    > Birthright campaigns...

    In a setting about governing as kings, if a DM wants to take that to a
    higher degree and think about what a "realm system" would look like from a
    divine perspective, I say fine. Being exclusionary doesn`t improve my game,
    but it might hurt it if the BR comunity were so small that everyone who
    didn`t play "just so" were to seek greener pastures elsewhere. What
    irdeggman is suggesting fits the idea that BR is about more than just
    wandering around filling your sack of gold, but ruling as well. Why that
    should end, I know not. I wouldn`t go so far as to advance characters to
    the divine, but that`s my own take on things.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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    Birthright Developer Raesene Andu's Avatar
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    Originally posted by gav
    I don't see the issue with most of the comments. Don't you guys use the Gods Haelyn, Nesire, Erik, Rournil etc. These are the scions I refer to who would have True bloodlines. I know that they are pretty powerful, but I thought the idea was that the gods of Birthright were quite powerful.
    If I recall correctly, limiting these new bloodline powers just to beings with true bloodlines, means limiting it to very few beings indeed (Gorgon, Serpent, Leviathan, etc) It won't make everyone able to become god, just create rules to govern those with true bloodlines who seek to become gods (against the Gorgon and Serpent spring to mind here). It sounds like an interesting idea and I can think of several adventure/campaign ideas already, especially for high level BR campaigns.


    My take on the issue is that the old gods died and the new gods were created from mortals exposed to the old gods blood essence (True presumably). That's what gave them the "Power" to create their own realms and have divine followers. I want to extend the rules to explain how the gods powers work. The gods were humans once and gained godhood. So although unlikely it is possible for a mortal to travel to the outlands and create their own realm. If two gods fought each other and mortals were present when another god died then I need rules to cover what happens to the newly created "demi-god".
    Similar to my own take on the whole BR setting actually.

    I have always thought that the whole way regents gain RP from their realms is very similar to the way gods gain power from their followers, and as only a regent can gain RP, then this would also tie in with the divine bloodline. You have some interesting ideas so far, although limited in use (I'd only use them for the Gorgon and Serpent), they are potentially valuable.


    I hope to use the return of the Cold Rider to be a catalyst for a renewed war between the gods and are therofore developing the mechanics. Indeed a non-scion campaign is effected by the scemes of regents - so when the players become powerful regents they must still bow to the scemes of the gods.
    I have an adventure Idea I've been developing for some time, an epic 2-3 part adventure involving the return of Azrai. Given that I'm unlikely to see it developed any time soon, I'll give you all a quick run down on the idea in case you want to use it.

    First some background...
    * The Cold Rider is Azrai, or rather a part of Azrai (his spirit or soul if you prefer)
    * It is his taint that has corrupted the Shadow World since Deismaar and led to the exodus of the Halflings, and as he has begun to regain his power, this corruption of the SW has grown worse.
    * Every time an Awnsheghlien or Scion of Azrai is killed and their bloodline appears to be lost, it actually goes to the SW and strengthens Azrai/TCR. Azrai/TCR also has amassed as huge army of undead, with the Lost and the Shadow Awnsheghlien (see Blood Spawn) as the army's generals.
    * However, Azrai/TCR is trapped in the SW and can not leave, unless a certain ritual is performed. This ritual is known to his worshippers in Cerilia and Aduria and for centuries they have been working to bring about a prophecy that will lead to the return of their god and the time for that ritual is drawing near.

    Building up the Suspense....
    * For months before the ritual is to take place, the people of Cerilia will be experiencing a period of peace and prosperity. The PC regents have defeat several Awnsheghlien (perhaps killed the Spider and Rhuobhe or someone similar), conquered large realms, perhaps even claimed the iron throne. However, they are unaware that as they have been killing Awnsheghlien and evil scions of Azrai, they have in fact been strengthening Azrai/TCR and increasing the returing god's power.
    * The Gorgon, the Magain, the Raven, and el-Seigul have all been very inactive, in fact the last three may even have disappeared all together (they have gone to the SW to serve Azrai, the Gorgon is up to something else entirely).
    * There has been a rise in madmen walking the street prophecising the return of Azrai and the end of the world, that sort of thing. Perhaps even a rise in people worshipping Azrai, although this shouldn't be overstressed.
    * The PC may have stumbled on an ancient text, untranslatable by magic or mundane means during an adventure month, or even years earlier. If they had kept it, it will be stolen (by agents of the Gorgon) just before the adventure begins, perhap the theft even starts the adventure

    The Ritual
    * The Ritual involves the combining of the three parts of Azrai into one. The three parts are his hand, his heart, and his soul. His hand is the Cold Rider, his soul is the Azrai Bloodline (or enough of it to become a god anyway), and his heart is an ancient gem in which the dark god had stored a portion of his power before Deismaar.
    * The first two parts of the ritual are complete, with enough of Azrai's bloodline being driven from the land to allow him to form a new avatar (the cold rider) and his mind, powers, and abilities are slowly returning to him, only the final part, where he will take on a new form in Aebrynis and ascend to godhood remains, but unfortunately the gem is still to be found. After fifteen centuries, the Gorgon has decided to become a god himself. However, he is unlikely to suceed before Azrai, at least not without some help, which is where the PCs come in.

    The Adventure (Part 1)
    * The PC are contacted in the Imperial City by a mysterious wizard who seeks a magical gem for some unknown reason. He will offer a reward (either magic, power, gold, or whatever) that they will have difficult refusing and they set off to find the gem. This wizard is of course the Gorgon who needs the gem as part of his own plan to become a god and challenge Azrai. He will insist on sending someone along with the PCs as a spy, this person will be a valuable ally and not do anything disloyal until the PCs find the gem.
    * Or the PCs could be seeking to track down the thief who stole the book from them, and this leads them to stories of a power magical gem, and PCs being PCs they will set off to find this gem.
    * The search for this gem takes up most of the first part of the adventure series, but while the PCs are away, events are afoot. The Cold Rider has gathered his forces and set out for Kal-Saitharak and the final part of the ritual that will bring about the return of Azrai. The Cold Rider has also sent undead, and perhaps even one or two of the lost into Aebrynis looking for the gem (gem called the Heart of Azrai)
    * The PC eventually encounter a sage or something similar who knows where this gem is, and it is back in the Imperial City.
    * When the PCs arrive back in the city they find it in a state of war, the Gorgon has invading trying to claim the gem (it is located in the Imperial Palace) and the defenders are sorey pressed. The PC should be able to help turn the tride and defeat the invaders, or at least break through the front lines and head for the palace.
    * When they arrive, a Portal to the SW has opened and the Gorgon and some of his most powerful sevants have arrived. He claims the gem and heads back through the Portal.
    * The PCs give chase, but arrive in the middle of a pitched battle between the forces of the Gorgon and the Cold Rider.

    The Adventure (Part 2)
    * The Gorgon flees back to Kal-Saitharak and prepares to use the powers of the Heart of Azrai to become a god.
    * The PCs escape the previous battle and find the portal behind them has closed so they must set out through the Shadow World. If they chose to follow the Gorgon, then they head towards Kal-Saitharak, shadow the whole way by the Cold Rider and his legions.
    * While the PCs are travelling in the SW (either lost, or following the Gorgon), the Gorgon is preparing for the ritual that will make him a god, and the hand of Azrai, or the Hand of Raesene as she is now calling herself is to perform the ceremony.
    * The PCs, the Cold Rider, etc, all arrive just as the ceremony is being preformed, and will natually try to stop it, possibly by stealin the gem.
    * The PC's interference stuffs up the ritual, and causes an explosion that opens a rift between the SW and Aebynis and the Cold Rider and his minions pour into the real world to destroy the Gorgon.
    * The PC end up holding the Gem (which has survived) and find themself the the focus of the attention of two armies. The Gorgon's forces seek to make their master a god, and the CR unthinking legion of undead just want the gem. The PCs can either choose to give up the gem to one of the powers (either the Gorgon or the Cold Rider/Azrai) or try to flee with the gem. The two evil powers may even attempt to bargin for control of the gem, or may just order their troops to attack.
    * If Azrai ends up with the gem, then his armies crush the Gorgon's troops and Azrai returns as a major power and darkness reigns over the world. This could lead to new wars, adventures, and conflicts as the PC attempt to combat the returned god, who no doubt will want to start up where he left off.
    * If the Gorgon ends up with the gem, then his armies are able to fight off the cold rider and the Gorgon becomes a new god, most likely an evil god of war to counter Haelyn and his lacky Cuiraecen.
    * If the PC try to flee, well that is another adventure all together as they attempt to find a way to destroy the Heart of Azrai and destroy the evil forever.
    * No matter what happens, there is now a large rift opened between the SW and the real world and the cold rider, the lost, and their undead legions can now cross over freely.


    Obviously there was more to the adventure series than that, but that's a quick run down.
    Let me claim your Birthright!!

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