Need info from MM2 fomy campaign, please help

[Lord Grave]

Could anyone tell me the ECL for Death Knight template from Monster Manual 2? Thanks in advance.

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[Sir Justine]

The ECL for the Death Knight template from the MM2 is +5, and his CR is +3.
Woudn't it be simpler if the CR and the ECL be the same?...

[Lord Grave]

> The ECL for the Death Knight template from the MM2 is +5, and his CR is
> +3.
> Woudn`t it be simpler if the CR and the ECL be the same?...

Huh, I though they should be the same. So what do I apply to get the effective level?

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[kgauck]

> Huh, I though they should be the same. So what do I apply to get
> the effective level?

ECL gets you the effective character level, note that it is a modifier. CR is
the challenge rating, it tells me what row to cross index my party against to
determine how many experience points they get for defeating one. The fact
that a death knight is a CR 3 creature tells me it is a fitting encounter for
a normal 3rd level party, meaning that at least one party member is seriously
threatened by the encounter. If ECL and CR were the same, aside from being
redundant, I would have to mentally calculate to figure out how many of
individual death knights my party was suited to encounter, and how much
experience is merited by the encounter.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Lord Grave


> The ECL for the Death Knight template from the MM2 is +5, and his CR is
> +3.
> Woudn`t it be simpler if the CR and the ECL be the same?...

Huh, I though they should be the same. So what do I apply to get the effective level?

ECL and CR are considered the same for "classed" characters, that is those that have standard class levels, i.e., classes other than NPC classes from the DMG.

The CR given in the MMII assumes the creature as written without additional class levels.

ECL actualy stands for effective character level, what is normally done when this phrase is used is that it refers to a modifier, e.g., ECL +2. Savage Species started presenting creatures in terms of the actual effective character level vice with a modifier.

[Sir Justine]

You should use the ECL (+5 for the Death Knight template).
So, a death knight fighter 5 would have an effective character level of 10 (5 levels +5 from his template). He would need the XP needed to advance to level 11 to become a fighter 6...
The CR is just a tool to measure how hard it will be for the PCs to defeat the creature. Aside from determining how much XP each creature is worth, it has no effect on the game.

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 4:26 AM


> ECL and CR are considered the same for "classed" characters, that is
> those that have standard class levels, i.e., classes other than NPC
classes
> from the DMG.

Of these, this one strikes me as most inaccurate. After all, is it likely
that a 3rd level character (pick a class) is going to A) seriously threaten
one character of B) drain a quarter of the party`s resources, when
confronting a well balanced group of four 3rd level characters? I think the
3rd level character is closer to a CR of 2. Even when we get to much higher
level characters, I`m not sure that a 15th level character will launch a
first strike which will satisfy A on a reliable basis. B is even less
likely because a balanced party has an easier time putting you in a
situation where if the character goes rock, the party goes paper, and so on.
The mix of skills makes it too easy to put you in a damned if you do and
damned if you don`t type of situation. All of this leads me to believe that
classed characters should have a CR that is 2/3`s of their effective level.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[Green Knight]

One problem with characters and CR is that PC classed characters are
inherently "unbalanced" on their own, since they are specialists and not
generalists. A wizard isn`t going to be as effective (in an absolute
sense) on his own as if he had say a fighter, a cleric and a rogue with
him.

So a 10th level wizard might IMO be "worth" CR 6-8 depending on the
situation, but a full CR 10 only when in a mixed group. Of course, the
group itself will be EL 14 if there were 4 ECL 10 members. This is
interesting, because it means that two equally powerful groups clashing
are considered quite a challenge...it can go either way.

If you disagree, compare the lone wizard to the lone dragon, who is IMO
much more balanced with a variety of magical and martial abilities. Face
a 10th level wizard against a juvenile black dragon (CR 6) and my bet is
on the dragon 9 times out of 10. Under no circumstance is this easy
challenge for the wizard. With an adult back dragon (CR 10) against a
10th level party, it is a different story. It`s not a walkover, but
neither is it life threatening.

I have also found that characters NEED to be maxed out, and have all the
magic (and other stuff) allowed them at their level. A party with less
(useful!) magic items will be significantly hampered. IMO most NPC will
rarely have this amount of equipment, if only to keep the loot out of PC
hands. Hey, if all NPCs have the full worth of gear, the PC will soon
have too much stuff for their level. It’s a bad circle really. Epic
Handbook goes as far as to quantify this problem; epic NPC have lower
CRs than their level would otherwise indicate. I think this holds true
for lower levels as well.

Even so, I still find PC CRs to be a bit high. If used with the standard
amount of gear and ability spread, and working in a group of 4 or so,
I`ll still subtract one from the final CR. With NPC classes this problem
is worse; there is no way a Warrior 10 is CR 9!

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[Lord Grave]

> > Huh, I though they should be the same. So what do I apply to get
> > the effective level?
>
> ECL gets you the effective character level, note that it is a modifier.
> CR is
> the challenge rating, it tells me what row to cross index my party against
> to
> determine how many experience points they get for defeating one. The fact
> that a death knight is a CR 3 creature tells me it is a fitting encounter
> for
> a normal 3rd level party, meaning that at least one party member is
> seriously
> threatened by the encounter. If ECL and CR were the same, aside from
> being
> redundant, I would have to mentally calculate to figure out how many of
> individual death knights my party was suited to encounter, and how much
> experience is merited by the encounter.

Oh, yeah, I know that. I was confused with CR+3. It should be only CR3. Thanks people.

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[Sir Justine]

Oh, yeah, I know that. I was confused with CR+3. It should be only CR3. Thanks people.

I put the CR as "+3" because the Death Knight is not a creature. It's a template, so it really doesn't has a CR, only a CR modifier.
You can't have a "death knight". You must have a (for example) "death knight fighter 7". His CR would be 10 (7 from his fighter levels plus 3 from his death knight template), so he would be a challenge to a party of four 10th level PCs...