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Thread: Nature school for elven wizards
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05-15-2003, 03:13 PM #11
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The idea of a separate spell lists for Elven wizards is pretty easy to do and balance, I think. It just shouldn't be characterized as a "school" - schools are mainly supposed to gather up certain types of effects (with subschools and descriptors as subdividers). Unlike 2e, there's a lot of different spell lists in 3e - making a new spell list is no problem. I just don't think calling it a "school" is a good idea. I know this sounds pedantic, but it's much easier to communicate an idea if we keep our concepts clear.
Making it cost a feat should IMO only be necessary if you actually gain access to additional spells, instead of simply changing one spell list for another.
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05-15-2003, 03:31 PM #12
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Originally posted by Elrond
The idea of a separate spell lists for Elven wizards is pretty easy to do and balance, I think. It just shouldn't be characterized as a "school" - schools are mainly supposed to gather up certain types of effects (with subschools and descriptors as subdividers). Unlike 2e, there's a lot of different spell lists in 3e - making a new spell list is no problem. I just don't think calling it a "school" is a good idea. I know this sounds pedantic, but it's much easier to communicate an idea if we keep our concepts clear.
Duane Eggert
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05-15-2003, 03:39 PM #13
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Originally posted by Elrond
Elven Arcane Lore [General]
You have mastered the fundamentals of elven arcane lore.
Prerequisites: Non elven-blooded wizard, Skill Focus (Knowledge Arcana).
Benefits: Upon taking this feat the wizard gains access to the elven “nature school” and becomes a specialist. He must choose necromancy and either evocation or conjuration as opposite schools.
He can still use the prohibited spells he knew prior to taking this feat, including using items that are activated by spell completion or spell trigger.
My idea is that this kind of magic may only be learned (this excludes sorcerers) by non elven-blooded characters and specialisation should be necessary for them. To achieve this, they need to take the Elven Arcane Lore feat.
On the contrary, elven-blooded sorcerers and wizards are free to select spells from the new “nature school” and the latter may specialise in that school. They don’t need to take the feat because the new spells are natural to elven sorcerers and part of the arcane teachings of elven wizardry.
Duane Eggert
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05-15-2003, 03:46 PM #14
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Mark_Aurel wrote:
>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1651
>
> Mark_Aurel wrote:
>
...
>Other things to consider for an Elven "nature mage" might be things like his bonus feats - scribe scroll doesn`t sound very appropriate by itself, though you could assume an alternate medium (i.e. "print spell on bark")
>
In the "Quintessential Wizard" from Mongoose publishing several examples
of alternate "scrolls" are given, e.g. rune stones (I think they sound
much like the stones the elven wizard in the Shadow Stone uses) or wood
slats.
bye
Michael
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05-15-2003, 05:17 PM #15
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Why create a new school and not just implement the traditional ones? Because the new spells can easily belong to traditional schools for the elves but should constitute an entirely new school for non elven wizards. The latter ones must specialise in the elven arcane lore. They cannot learn, for example, Invisibility to Animals as an illusion spell, Detect Animals or Plants as a divination, Summon Nature’s Ally I as a conjuration or Animal Friendship as an enchantment, like elves do. They must learn them from the “nature school”. On the other hand, elven wizards may either specialise in the new school, take these new spells from the traditional schools or take (for example) Invisibility to Animals from the “nature school” even if they are specialised in illusion and count divination (but not “nature”) as an opposition school.
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05-15-2003, 05:40 PM #16
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By requiring a character with this feat to become a specialist wizard is pretty restrictive.
Stating that he can use any spells/items from the oppositin listed that he knew before taking the feat is contrary to the way that specialist wizards work. Once an oppositin school always an opposition school - that is the point of being an opposition school.
Also why require an opposition school when necraomancy is pretty much already a racial opposition school, hence no drawback to make up for the bonuses granted by specializing (an extra spell per day, better Spellcraft checks).:)
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05-15-2003, 06:27 PM #17
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I think it’s better to speak of a new school. In Spells&Magic (a second edition accessory) additional schools were created: alchemy, force, elemental... The spells included in those new schools were taken from the traditional ones. A distinction was made between schools of effect and of philosophy. The same can be done with the third edition. The “nature school” should include abjurations, conjurations, divinations and so on, dealing with nature.
I still think Spells & Magic was a pretty good accessory for its time - it contained lots of diverse, useful material and ideas, and was solidly written overall. In 3e terms, though, the new schools it introduced wouldn't work as schools - they'd more likely be separate spell lists - not new schools by themselves; that's sort of hardcoded into the system core, and the new wizard specialists would be some kind of prestige class, or feat.
There's really no reason why you can't make it a new school - you'd just have to rewrite a large section of the PHB and the spell lists as part of your house rules. It's a much better and less intrusive way to make a separate spell list instead. Use the base wizard list, drop most necromancy effects and area effect evocations, add a lot of druid spells, and I think you have what you want - in a way that doesn't require tampering with the core of the game's spell system.Jan E. Juvstad.
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05-15-2003, 08:21 PM #18
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On Thu, 15 May 2003, Elrond wrote:
> Third edition, of course.
Not necessarily. My BR campaign is still 2e (albeit heavily modified),
because I haven`t yet found or made a 3e conversion I like. I`m thinking
even more strongly of taking it to something that isn`t D&D at all;
however, I still like to talk about how I`d do it in D&D. =)
> I`m one of the few Italians (I`m sorry for my English)
No need to apologize: your English is excellent. Better than the kind
spoken by many of my fellow Americans, actually -- as is the case with
many of the non-native speakers on this list. :)
> So let`s specify, in the description of elves and half-elves, that
> elven blooded arcane spellcasters have free access to spells from the
> "nature school" (to be created) and let`s introduce a new general feat
> (for non elven wizards): "elven arcane lore".
Sounds like a fine plan. I`m not keen on the specialization rule, though.
I think it makes perfect sense that for non-elves to gain access to elven
nature magic, they must sacrifice their ability to cast necromantic
spells. I`m torn on the topic of whether specialists who have already
sacrificed necromancy by choosing it as an opposition school should be
able to take this feat without giving up anything else, or if they should
be forced to lose evocation as well. However, I don`t think they should
be required to specialize in nature magic. Certainly they can if they
wish, but I can see a place both for generalists with a different list and
for specialists in other schools. I suspect this feat would be extremely
popular among Khinasi wizards, who are already forbidden to do necromancy;
Rjurik wizards who wish to please the druids, work alongside them or even
pretend to be one of them; and all those, especially specialist enchanters
and illusionists, who wish to ingratiate themselves with the elves in the
hopes of being accepted as students.
> My idea is that this kind of magic may only be learned (this excludes
> sorcerers) by a non elven-blooded characters
I don`t see why it should exclude sorcerers; could you please explain?
Ryan Caveney
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05-15-2003, 09:49 PM #19
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I don`t think they should be required to specialise in nature magic.
I don`t see why it should exclude sorcerers; could you please explain?
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05-15-2003, 10:27 PM #20
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I have always thought of elves as something like the jann.
Perhaps a small template of ECL+1 like the tables in Manual of Planes for half-elemental.
Even commoners would have small spell-like ability.
With using the community creation rules from the DMG, most of, if not all of the 1st level NPC-classes would not exist as they are ECL2. This would help explain the lower population in elven provinces.
Even a common elf is more powerful than a common human.
Humans advantage is numbers and divine guidance.
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