Nature school for elven wizards

[irdeggman]

Actually Ian, the concept of Shadow magic and a world of shadow (or plane) dates back even farther. Dark Sun had very strong ties to the shadow plane and Birthright got a lot of its concepts from there.

[geeman]

3 +0200, irdeggman wrote:



> As Lord Rhavin pointed out, making this selection of spells a school

> would allow any wizard or sorcerer access to them. This is generally a

> bad idea. Not only would it dilute the emphasis being made on Cerilian

> elves` aptitudes and connection to nature but it would open up a huge can

> of worms that would allow arcane casters to cast divine spells.

>

>Making it a racial list, using the dragon lists or even those that a Drow

>can use as examples of how this can be done would prevent access to these

>spells by non-elven arcane casters which is a very important consideration

>here.



Given the limited number of true mages in BR, I don`t think this is really

that much of a problem, but I did note in the description of the school

that it was only available to elven or half-elven spellcasters. Given that

it is a campaign specific situation, it`s easy to add such a note to

accommodate the campaign material. That write up made Nature an "exclusive

school" if you will, not available to humans (or other spellcasters.)



>This also follows the pattern of racial familiarity for weapons in a broad

>type of way. It could be said that Cerilian elves and half-elves have a

>racial familiarity with the following spells (insert appropriate list) and

>they can be added to the appropriate arcane caster spell list for them. A

>bit of a stretch but a similar precedent has been set with the dwarven

>waraxe and making it a martial weapon for dwarves. This doesn`t mean that

>any dwarf can use it but those with proficiency in martial weapons can

>without having to spend a exotic weapon feat on it. The similar case

>could be made for elves, those who can cast arcane spells can add

>thesespells to their spell list following the normal rules.



My argument is that access to a simple spell list is not significant enough

to reflect the elven interest in nature magic as described in the campaign

text. As an "exclusive school" it allows for the possibility of elven

specialists in the school, making the study of "nature magic" a particular

effort on the part of the elf.



To continue the analogy of racial weapon proficiencies; making it a school

of magic is similar to the rule that allows for dwarves to specialize in

that racial weapon, so they have the possibility of specializing in the

weapon. Giving elves access to spell list alone without describing it as a

school is like giving the dwarves the ability to wield their waraxe as a

racial ability, but without describing it as a proficiency so that they can

use feats like Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization to it.



>Making it a school that "requires" specialization to learn

>doesn`t fit any of the mechanics in 3.0/3.5 or any of materials that I

>have seen published by companies other than Wizards. Specialization is

>always an "option" and not a requirement.



The suggestion I`ve made in regards to this is that elven wizards could

either gain access to the school as a ninth school of magic (without

specialization) or if one felt that was imbalancing that they could trade

in one of the schools (Necromancy being most apt, both as far as campaign

material and game mechanics are concerned) in order to gain access to the

proposed Nature school (this is still without specialization.) If one

wanted to specialize in the Nature school the text describing how to do

that was a bit more stringent than is the norm for specialization; two

schools became opposed schools or three of the less significant ones (using

the PHB as a guide in that assessment.) Usually specialization requires

only one or two opposed schools, though several do have "any three schools"

as also a possibility.



Personally, I don`t think it would be very imbalancing to just add the

Nature school as a 9th school of magic to those available to elven

spellcasters--imbalancing spellcasters is a bit of a redundancy--but I can

see how it would make sense from a game mechanic standpoint to make them

trade a single school for access and two or three for

specialization. Since it seems to fit in just as nicely with the colour

text of the setting, it`s a good option.



Gary

[Raesene Andu]

Originally posted by irdeggman@Aug 11 2003, 11:08 PM
Actually Ian, the concept of Shadow magic and a world of shadow (or plane) dates back even farther. Dark Sun had very strong ties to the shadow plane and Birthright got a lot of its concepts from there.

I didn't know that (but then I don't own any Dark Sun products). So it must be a good idea then, if everyone is using it. I know the whole Shadow Magic/Awnmebhaighl concept is something I've used a lot in my own campaigns, even before the FRCS came up with the Shadow Adept prestige class.

[ConjurerDragon]

> At 11:33 AM 8/11/2003 +0200, irdeggman wrote:



...



> There isn`t anything in setting`s _rules_ that I recall reading that

> would

> support a school of magic for nature, just "the campaign setting`s

> text". Specifically, the text was several quotes regarding the elven

> take

> on magic from the BoM with a brief annotation, but there`s additional

> stuff

> from other sources.

> Gary



For example "Greatheart" where elves could meld into trees or something

similar to hide from their enemies.

bye

Michael

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by ConjurerDragon@Aug 11 2003, 10:06 AM


> At 11:33 AM 8/11/2003 +0200, irdeggman wrote:



...



> There isn`t anything in setting`s _rules_ that I recall reading that

> would

> support a school of magic for nature, just "the campaign setting`s

> text". Specifically, the text was several quotes regarding the elven

> take

> on magic from the BoM with a brief annotation, but there`s additional

> stuff

> from other sources.

> Gary



For example "Greatheart" where elves could meld into trees or something

similar to hide from their enemies.

bye

Michael

I knew someone would bring that one up. The problem with it is the fact that a human could do it also only not as well. Basically, it translates into a skill of some kind and not a real ability. Because of the ability for a non-blooded human to do this, I didn't perceive it as a magic thing.

The other factor is do we consider the fiction to be cannon? Or is it merely color that helps.

[ConjurerDragon]

r />


>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/ind...ST&f=36&t=1651

>

>...

>

> For example "Greatheart" where elves could meld into trees or something<>

> similar to hide from their enemies.<>

> bye<>

> Michael<>

>I knew someone would bring that one up. The problem with it is the fact that a human could do it also only not as well. Basically, it translates into a skill of some kind and not a real ability. Because of the ability for a non-blooded human to do this, I didn`t perceive it as a magic thing.

> The other factor is do we consider the fiction to be cannon? Or is it merely color that helps.

>

>

In Greatheart the two goblins are described as not understanding which

parts of the elves abilitys is trained and what needs magic to work (I

think the transleap over an enemy was the location in the book). So the

human who was raised by the elves could perhaps have learned something

about their magic. Perhaps a 3E Commoner 1/Fighter X/Magician Y...

bye

Michael

[Raesene Andu]

Originally posted by irdeggman@Aug 12 2003, 12:51 AM
I knew someone would bring that one up. The problem with it is the fact that a human could do it also only not as well. Basically, it translates into a skill of some kind and not a real ability. Because of the ability for a non-blooded human to do this, I didn&#39;t perceive it as a magic thing.

The other factor is do we consider the fiction to be cannon? Or is it merely color that helps.

Or possibly an ability unique to the Sielwode, due perhaps to an property of the ancient trees that make up that forest or some ancient magic cast by a long dead elf.

As for the novels being cannon, well to a certain extent perhaps, but there are several notable inconsistancies and outright errors in a couple of the novels, so while they make good stories, I wouldn&#39;t necessarily consider every single word to be cannon.

[geeman]

3 +0200, irdeggman wrote:



> The other factor is do we consider the fiction to be cannon? Or is it

> merely color that helps.



I wouldn`t consider it canon, but I do think a lot of that stuff indicates

things that can be included as game mechanics and that are sensible to

include as at least optional material, since it`s got a lot of thematic

material that is the kind of thing that makes a campaign material special.



The BoM is where the majority of the emphasis on the nature aspect of elves

comes from, but some folks dislike this or that supplement to the BR

materials from time to time, so if one wasn`t wild about that text I can

see discounting it. The BoM is IMO one of the better supplements, and the

stuff about the elven philosophy and capacity for magic seems to fit

smoothly into the basic background of the race as described in the

Rulebook, so I think it`d be fine to put right into the campaign setting`s

write up--especially since it wouldn`t be a lot of text. Others might

prefer that it appear in a 3.0 -- 3.5 update of the BoM text, however.



Similarly, the Tuarhieval SB has a lot of commentary that I think could be

used to justify an Elemental school of magic for BR elves (I used a touch

of it in the description of the Nature school since it seemed so

significant to the race.) Since that descriptive text seems to fit so well

into the elven psychology and the rest of the setting, I would really

prefer to see elves having access to spells lists of both those types and

that they were described as additional schools of magic to allow for

specialization and the ancillary effects of schools.



Gary

[Elrond]

Wow&#33; It seems you enjoyed this topic. I’m sorry but I wasn’t able to follow the the thread in the last two months.
In September I’ll begin a 3.5 Birthright campaign. I passed the last weeks translating the Brcs stuff in Italian (for my players) and I’ve introduced a few home rules.
Well, I’ve considered the whole matter of the “elven nature school” and... I’ve changed my mind: no new school and no “elven arcane lore feat”. :P
Here’s the solution I’ve adopted. Elven arcane spellcasters (true magic) lose spells from necromancy and evocation and gain about half the spells of the druid list (distributed among the six remaining arcane schools). The elf comprehension of mabhaighl and the balance of nature is more profound than the one of other races. In giving up necromancy and evocation, an elf becomes one with nature and is able to channel the mebhaighl to power a different kind of spells. This lore was never revealed to non elves and remains secret. Renegade elven arcane spellcasters (the ones using necromancy and evocation) are no longer tuned to nature and lose the new spells.
An elf wizard gives up only one of the remaining six schools to become a specialist. (Another home rule regarding all specialist wizards, under the 3.5 rules, is the possibility to chose divination as one of the two opposition schools... If players are so stupid to give up divinations, that’s their problem).

[ryancaveney]

Elrond wrote:



> Here`s the solution I`ve adopted. Elven arcane spellcasters (true

> magic) lose spells from necromancy and evocation and gain about half

> the spells of the druid list (distributed among the six remaining

> arcane schools).



Not too bad, but I`m really not keen on Sidhelien giving up evocation.

I know the BoM says they shun it, but to me the only reason for that

is fear of collateral damage -- that is, no fireballs in their home

forests, but fireballs in human villages in the plains are fair game,

and perhaps even encouraged. Evocations with little or no chance of

harming nearby trees (e.g., Magic Missile) I think are never a problem.



I am very strongly attached to the primal elemental view of the Sidhelien,

and thus deeply disagree with the idea that a sidhe with strong fire

ancestry and perhaps a Basaia bloodline to boot can`t sling fireballs

anywhere she wants, _as an important part of_, rather than in opposition

to, her connection to nature.



> Renegade elven arcane spellcasters (the ones using necromancy and

> evocation) are no longer tuned to nature and lose the [nature] spells.



This is a fine plan. How many of these do you envision exist in

Cerilia? None? Just Rhuobhe Manslayer? Lots in Tuar Annwn?





Ryan Caveney