Gods and mortals question.....

[Peter Lubke]

On Fri, 2003-05-09 at 19:32, irdeggman wrote:
> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1636
>
> irdeggman wrote:
>

Originally posted by geeman
>
> That might not be a bad thing if one wanted to develop it somehow as part of
> a campaign. The Lost, for instance, might be quite interesting if they were
> actually defined as descendants of Azrai. It would also allow for the
> creation of new bloodline derivations--Moradin, Laerme and Cuiracaen, for
> example--which could also be a lot of fun to play out. BR purists might
> howl, but there`s no reason why one can`t do it in a homebrew. I, for one,
> would be interested in hearing how such a campaign played out.
> Gary
>

>
> The problem with creating "new bloodlines" is that the god has to "die"
> first. That was how they (bloodlines) were created in the first place, by
> the "total" destruction of the divine being that was its source. Any
> other method of creating new bloodlines would destroy the campaign
> concepts in this regard.

You mean new "derivation". Even the creation of the younger gods,
Cuiraecen, Laerme et al did not create new bloodline derivations.

I don`t think that the destruction of Avani, Erik, Haelyn, Nesirie etc
would create a new derivation. They are not "primal" gods, but
secondary ones. Perhaps the real reason that the secondary gods will not
engage each other is precisely that - destruction would be permanent, as
these gods do not have the ability to pass on their derivation and
portfolios like the elder gods. (Limitations on godly powers is and
always has been a basic tenet of D&D - not to mention most human
legend).

For dwarves, Moradin is a primal god figure. If it were possible that he
were to be discorporated and his essence confined to Aebrynnis and/or
Cerilia in some way then perhaps there would be a new derivation.

Personally, IMC, I already limit bloodlines to humans only. It solves a
great number of petty problems and inconsistencies. The lack of
bloodlines for non-human rulers does not stop them from collecting RP
because I interpret the RP rule as the maximum of bloodline score and
domain power (as does RoE and the other source books).

>
> Now children of the gods and mortals (or even elves?) would be an
> interesting concept and probably could be be worked out using the
> guidelines in Deities and Demigods.

Two complicating factors exist:
(a) The human gods were once (are still? in some way?) themselves human
(B) Bloodlines, inheritance - genetic or otherwise -

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[Peter Lubke]

On Fri, 2003-05-09 at 23:02, daniel mcsorley wrote:
> On Fri, 9 May 2003, irdeggman wrote:
> > The problem with creating "new bloodlines" is that the god has to
> > "die" first. That was how they (bloodlines) were created in the
> > first place, by the "total" destruction of the divine being that was
> > its source. Any other method of creating new bloodlines would destroy
> > the campaign concepts in this regard.
>
> We don`t know that they have to die to create a bloodline, only that that
> is how the current ones were formed. I think it`s plausible that the Lost
> had azrai bloodlines even before Deismaar, that`s how they got to be
> powerful. He would have just given the bloodlines to them by hand, so to
> speak.
> --
> Communication is possible only between equals.
> Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

Good point

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[Peter Lubke]

On Sat, 2003-05-10 at 03:43, Gary wrote:
> At 05:24 PM 5/9/2003 +0200, Azrai wrote:
>
> >??? I don`t see any "indications". The Bloodlines have their origin in
> >the battle of Deismaar.
>
> Well, "indications" in this case might be a rather strong word for the
> Birthright community--which can be rather semantically hypersensitive in my
> experience (I include myself in that population there.) "Hints" or
> "suggests" might be softer language and more appropriate.
>
...
>
> Since the only things in BR the only things that allow for access to true
> magic is a bloodline or elven heritage making the Lost similar to a blooded
> character is not only the simplest explanation but the one that fits most
> easily into the setting material.

Actually, it`s "one" way for a HUMAN (?or other usually non-casting
species? - it seems not, one minor argument for no non-human bloodlines
except those of Azrai) to gain access to true magic. It`s the only way
open to player characters. Other possible explanation for the Losts`
powers have been put forward. One powerful argument against the Lost
having Azrai bloodlines is their lack of bloodform transformation. But
such argument does not mean that they could not have been given a
bloodline (unique or unknown derivation) by Azrai.


>
> >
> >Allowing new derivations is a shift in the system of bloodline, but it
> >won`t destroy the campaign concept. New bloodline derivations doesn`t mean
> >the impact of the battle of Deismaar is any less significant to the
> >setting`s background, or that characters would be significantly
> >altered.
> >
> >The invention of new bloodlines IS a significant change of the campaign world.
>
> Sure, but extending the concept wouldn`t destroy the campaign theme or ruin
> its background.
>
> Gary

Agreed.

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[geeman]

At 08:41 PM 5/10/2003 +1000, Peter Lubke wrote:

>One powerful argument against the Lost having Azrai bloodlines is their
>lack of bloodform transformation.

Do you have a reference for that? I don`t recall reading anything that
would specifically said they didn`t transform.

Gary

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[geeman]

Assuming that one of the gods did have a child with a mortal, that that
child will him/erself be a mortal, and the benefits of his/er divine
heritage will be described using the BR system of bloodline... what would
that bloodline be? Derivation I think we can surmise, but what about
bloodline strength and score? Will s/he have a true bloodline strength or
will it be something more or less powerful? What kind of bloodline score
might such a character have? (For the purpose of this discussion it might
be easiest to use the 2e concept of bloodline score rather than any of the
post-2e ability score or character level interpretations of
bloodline.) Last, would the character have abilities other than bloodline,
like the celestial template?

Gary

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[ryancaveney]

On Sat, 10 May 2003, Gary wrote:

> Assuming that one of the gods did have a child with a mortal [...]
> What kind of bloodline score might such a character have?

I`d say the god would get to choose. I`d further say the gods have a
limited amount of energy to play with, and that giving a mortal by-blow
more than a taint of bloodline would cost the god some of their personal
power (which might or might not be replenishable by worship). Makes
in-game sense, and provides a good reason we don`t see many (if any) of
these demigods running around. If you`re going to have demigods in your
campaign, IMO the most logical choice among existing NPCs is to have the
White Witch be literally the daughter of Kriesha.


Ryan Caveney

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[Arjan]

Take the raven for an example... he did transform to a "raven", then
took over a human body...

On the other hand, IMO the lost got their azrai essence after the big
boom. So only those (known) to be survived could have a azrai bloodline
and thus being transformed.
They were already mighty true wizards, a power given by azrai, but that
doesn`t say they had a bloodline in front of deismaar.

Arjan

-----Original Message-----
From: Birthright Roleplaying Game Discussion
[mailto:BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM] On Behalf Of Gary
Sent: zaterdag 10 mei 2003 14:53
To: BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] Gods and mortals question..... [2#1636]

At 08:41 PM 5/10/2003 +1000, Peter Lubke wrote:

>One powerful argument against the Lost having Azrai bloodlines is their
>lack of bloodform transformation.

Do you have a reference for that? I don`t recall reading anything that
would specifically said they didn`t transform.

Gary

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[Talaran]

When the original gods took form at the Battle of Desmaar, they pooled all of their energies into their form, not just creating an avatar - making uber-avatars, so-to-speak. This is why when they were destroyed that their power was dispersed out. If the gods took an avatar form on Cerilia and were killed, it wouldn't, IMHO, create a new bloodline. The old gods did it only in a last ditch effort at the battle, which was an all or nothing fight. Similiar circumstances would have to happen for the new gods to take such a foolish action.

As for the offspring of a god and a mortal, I would say that the offspring would automatically be considered a Great bloodline of the derivation that the parent god would have gained; if it happened to be one of the first generation of new gods (Haelyn, Erik, Avani, etc...). Otherwise, it would be about a fifty-fifty percent chance for the bloodline of either of the god's parentage (Cuiraecen = Anduiras/Masela; Eloele = Vorynn/Brenna; Laerme = Reynir/Basaia).

In the Blood Enemies book, they imply that the Gorgon gained enough of Azrai's power to ascend to godhood, but his hatred of Roele kept him mortal-bound. One might suppose that if this is so, then any children that he would have had would have been the same as a god and a mortal bearing children.

Talaran ap Sielwode