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  1. #1
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    Does anyone know of any know incidences or ledgends where the birthright gods, new or old, had children with a mortal? If so, was the birth sucessful? What was the progeny like?

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    As far as I remember there is no official hint to that topic.
    my purpose is now to lead you into the Pallace where you shall have a clear and delightful view of all those various objects, and scattered excellencies, that lye up and down upon the face of creation, which are only seen by those that go down into the Seas, and by no other....

  3. #3
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    TheVoice writes:

    > Does anyone know of any know incidences or ledgends where the
    > birthright gods, new or old, had children with a mortal? If
    > so, was the birth sucessful? What was the progeny like?

    That might be a somewhat sticky issue in BR since the role of scions really
    takes over what would be the role of those mythic heros who had divine
    ancestry in other pantheons--probably most notably the Greek. Since scions
    have "the blood of the gods" in them by virtue of their descendance from
    someone who was present at the battle of Deismaar--or in a few cases having
    actually been there themselves--a character actually descended of a BR god
    and a mortal in the RL mythic sense could be a sort of scion.

    That might not be a bad thing if one wanted to develop it somehow as part of
    a campaign. The Lost, for instance, might be quite interesting if they were
    actually defined as descendants of Azrai. It would also allow for the
    creation of new bloodline derivations--Moradin, Laerme and Cuiracaen, for
    example--which could also be a lot of fun to play out. BR purists might
    howl, but there`s no reason why one can`t do it in a homebrew. I, for one,
    would be interested in hearing how such a campaign played out.

    When it comes to the new gods, however, one should bear in mind that they`ve
    taken something of a "hand`s off" view when it comes to human affairs (all
    puns fully intended) since such activities have turned so destructive in the
    past, so mortal heros who are descended from the gods after Deismaar would
    seem unlikely.

    Gary

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  4. #4
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by geeman

    That might not be a bad thing if one wanted to develop it somehow as part of
    a campaign. The Lost, for instance, might be quite interesting if they were
    actually defined as descendants of Azrai. It would also allow for the
    creation of new bloodline derivations--Moradin, Laerme and Cuiracaen, for
    example--which could also be a lot of fun to play out. BR purists might
    howl, but there`s no reason why one can`t do it in a homebrew. I, for one,
    would be interested in hearing how such a campaign played out.
    Gary
    The problem with creating "new bloodlines" is that the god has to "die" first. That was how they (bloodlines) were created in the first place, by the "total" destruction of the divine being that was its source. Any other method of creating new bloodlines would destroy the campaign concepts in this regard.

    Now children of the gods and mortals (or even elves?) would be an interesting concept and probably could be be worked out using the guidelines in Deities and Demigods.
    Duane Eggert

  5. #5
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    On Fri, 9 May 2003, irdeggman wrote:
    > The problem with creating "new bloodlines" is that the god has to
    > "die" first. That was how they (bloodlines) were created in the
    > first place, by the "total" destruction of the divine being that was
    > its source. Any other method of creating new bloodlines would destroy
    > the campaign concepts in this regard.

    We don`t know that they have to die to create a bloodline, only that that
    is how the current ones were formed. I think it`s plausible that the Lost
    had azrai bloodlines even before Deismaar, that`s how they got to be
    powerful. He would have just given the bloodlines to them by hand, so to
    speak.
    --
    Communication is possible only between equals.
    Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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    Thanks Guys! Interesting answers all round, thanks for the help. I shall use the possibilities are rumours more than anything since the game I'm playing in is not run by yours truley.

    Cheers again!

  7. #7
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 11:32 AM 5/9/2003 +0200, irdeggman wrote:

    >The problem with creating "new bloodlines" is that the god has to
    >"die" first. That was how they (bloodlines) were created in the first
    >place, by the "total" destruction of the divine being that was its
    >source. Any other method of creating new bloodlines would destroy the
    >campaign concepts in this regard.

    That`s the method that created the original bloodlines, and the only one
    described in the published materials, but there`s nothing that really
    indicates that`s the only way of creating a bloodline. In fact, one could
    argue that there are a few indications that bloodlines existed in some form
    before the battle, and that their creation, though rare, is possible. The
    Lost and the Land`s Choice could be interpreted as a process of character
    level apotheosis (which is all bloodline is, really) that equates to
    characters getting a new bloodline.

    Allowing new derivations is a shift in the system of bloodline, but it
    won`t destroy the campaign concept. New bloodline derivations doesn`t mean
    the impact of the battle of Deismaar is any less significant to the
    setting`s background, or that characters would be significantly
    altered. Thematically, one could fit new derivations into the bloodline
    system pretty easily. No new derivations might be something of a "sacred
    cow" in BR terms, but I`ve always found sacred cows tastier than the
    regular kind, so that`s never really been something I worry about.

    To include new derivations all one really needs two things. The first is a
    justification for their creation and that`s pretty easy. One could descend
    from the mating of a god with a mortal, the Land`s Choice could create new
    derivations--maybe even ones that don`t exist as gods in the BR pantheon, a
    conscious effort on the part of a god might create a bloodline, a 9th level
    spell similar to the one the Magian uses to corrupt bloodlines or other
    "mad scientist" experimentation of the kind that created the Binman or gave
    the Chimaera a bloodline. One could even extrapolate the blending of
    bloodlines over the years into new derivations based upon those gods who
    actually had offspring in the years after they ascended--if the gods can
    create whole new gods then one could posit a similar process at the mortal
    level of bloodline.

    The second is a list of the blood abilities associated with the
    derivation. Laerme might have Alter Appearance, Blood History, Bloodmark,
    Character Reading, Detect Lie, Detect Illusion, Direction Sense, Divine
    Aura, etc.

    >Now children of the gods and mortals (or even elves?) would be an
    >interesting concept and probably could be be worked out using the
    >guidelines in Deities and Demigods.

    Was there some part of that text in particular you were thinking of
    here? Proxies, perhaps?

    If so, it might be interesting to think of bloodline as sort of the Savage
    Species version of that process; an articulated "levelling up" process to
    demigodhood.

    Gary

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  8. #8
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    Originally posted by geeman


    In fact, one could
    argue that there are a few indications that bloodlines existed in some form
    before the battle, and that their creation, though rare, is possible. The
    Lost and the Land`s Choice could be interpreted as a process of character
    level apotheosis (which is all bloodline is, really) that equates to
    characters getting a new bloodline.


    ??? I don't see any "indications". The Bloodlines have their origin in the battle of Deismaar.


    Allowing new derivations is a shift in the system of bloodline, but it
    won`t destroy the campaign concept. New bloodline derivations doesn`t mean
    the impact of the battle of Deismaar is any less significant to the
    setting`s background, or that characters would be significantly
    altered.


    The invention of new bloodlines IS a significant change of the campaign world.


    If so, it might be interesting to think of bloodline as sort of the Savage
    Species version of that process; an articulated "levelling up" process to
    demigodhood.


    That is not such a bad idea.
    my purpose is now to lead you into the Pallace where you shall have a clear and delightful view of all those various objects, and scattered excellencies, that lye up and down upon the face of creation, which are only seen by those that go down into the Seas, and by no other....

  9. #9
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 05:24 PM 5/9/2003 +0200, Azrai wrote:

    >??? I don`t see any "indications". The Bloodlines have their origin in
    >the battle of Deismaar.

    Well, "indications" in this case might be a rather strong word for the
    Birthright community--which can be rather semantically hypersensitive in my
    experience (I include myself in that population there.) "Hints" or
    "suggests" might be softer language and more appropriate.

    When it comes to the influence of the Lost on the width and breadth of the
    bloodline concept, the logic would be that if the Lost could cast true
    magic before Deismaar that indicates [or insert softer transitive verb]
    that whatever it is that it is that makes one "Lost" is similar to a
    bloodline, since that`s one of the things bloodline does. Interpreting the
    Lost as wizards with a bloodline or something very similar to it would
    explain their access to true magic. There are other possibilities, of
    course, to explain the abilities of those characters, many of which have
    been extolled in the past, so I`ll not recount them. None of those
    possibilities, however, are mutually exclusive. That is, one member of the
    Lost may have had his soul replaced with some demonic one and gained access
    to certain true magics, while another might have been granted some sort of
    bloodline-like set of stats to gain access to true magic. Azrai may (and
    probably would) have experimented with such things.

    Since the only things in BR the only things that allow for access to true
    magic is a bloodline or elven heritage making the Lost similar to a blooded
    character is not only the simplest explanation but the one that fits most
    easily into the setting material.

    When it comes to the Land`s Choice there seems to be a power at work that
    allows for the creation of a bloodline of any sort at the whim of that
    power. It could be completely a random power, or there could be an
    intelligence behind it, but there is some motive force that creates those
    bloodlines. The Land`s Choice can create entirely new bloodlines with new
    bloodline strength, bloodline score and blood abilities. The derivation of
    such a newly minted bloodline is also up to the Land`s choice. Now, I
    can`t say for sure what it is that the actual gods to do to have
    offspring. I imagine there`s a correlation to the mortal methods,
    certainly, but there`s also a mixing of the "divine genetic material" as it
    were. Since the Land can invent bloodlines and assign a derivation to them
    it must have some sort of control over that process, so one can extrapolate
    the creation of new bloodline derivations at least for those gods that were
    created from the gods elevated at Deismaar that is similar to the
    "eugenics" that the gods themselves employ to have progeny.

    The Land`s Choice creating derivations for gods or their progeny that
    weren`t at Deismaar is a bit more of a stretch but one can get there by
    considering the bigger picture a bit. Temples of gods other than those
    directly connected to Deismaar can generate regency for scions who control
    them, and the bloodline derivations of those controlling regents need not
    have any connection to the god being worshipped. A scion of Basaia can
    collect regency from a temple dedicated to Brenna, Moradin or the even
    Serpent. Whatever it is that makes something a Temple of X is incidental
    to the process of worship and divinity itself. Derivation really only
    effects the type of blood abilities a character has access to. Regency
    comes from a connection to the Land itself, and since temples structures
    are connected to all the gods the has some sort of connection to each of
    them. Creating a derivation based on another god`s "portfolio" then
    shouldn`t be that much of a leap.

    >
    >Allowing new derivations is a shift in the system of bloodline, but it
    >won`t destroy the campaign concept. New bloodline derivations doesn`t mean
    >the impact of the battle of Deismaar is any less significant to the
    >setting`s background, or that characters would be significantly
    >altered.

    >
    >The invention of new bloodlines IS a significant change of the campaign world.

    Sure, but extending the concept wouldn`t destroy the campaign theme or ruin
    its background.

    Gary

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  10. #10
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    On Fri, 2003-05-09 at 09:01, Gary Foss wrote:
    > TheVoice writes:
    >
    > > Does anyone know of any know incidences or ledgends where the
    > > birthright gods, new or old, had children with a mortal? If
    > > so, was the birth sucessful? What was the progeny like?
    >
    > That might be a somewhat sticky issue in BR since the role of scions really
    > takes over what would be the role of those mythic heros who had divine
    > ancestry in other pantheons--probably most notably the Greek. Since scions
    > have "the blood of the gods" in them by virtue of their descendance from
    > someone who was present at the battle of Deismaar--or in a few cases having
    > actually been there themselves--a character actually descended of a BR god
    > and a mortal in the RL mythic sense could be a sort of scion.

    Yet we are still talking human beings here in the most part - and for
    the purpose of further discussion within this post I`ll limit myself to
    comments re humans only.

    That several human (only) characters were raised to godhood in the
    aftermath of Deismaar is itself significant for it raises the
    possibility of such occurring again.

    Would such a change make them incapable of producing children with other
    humans? An argument is given later that they would not want to, but such
    an argument is fraught with potential pitfalls. Can they only reproduce
    with each other (as has occurred - and thus shows that the desire and
    drive still exists) ? Do the gods have feet of clay? Does some of their
    humanity still exist? How can they know their people without
    experiencing the whole gamut of existence ?

    Given all that, and human nature even if transmogrified, I`d say that -
    yes it is possible, yes it is likely, but no we haven`t heard of
    anything.

    But, and here`s the main point, this may not necessarily mean that the
    progeny were (a) godlike (demi-gods, godlings, etc), (B) exceptional in
    any way (including even being unblooded). Given that a god (or goddess -
    although less likely due to insufficient fitness indicators in mortal
    suitors) may have dallied in avatar form - such a form does not
    necessarily carry or transmit bloodline.

    Of course if they were blooded, and exceptional in their activities -
    given the degree of parental interest, they may become candidates for
    immortal status of some kind - even to raising to godhood.

    >
    > When it comes to the new gods, however, one should bear in mind that they`ve
    > taken something of a "hand`s off" view when it comes to human affairs (all
    > puns fully intended) since such activities have turned so destructive in the
    > past, so mortal heros who are descended from the gods after Deismaar would
    > seem unlikely.
    >
    > Gary

    Based on a "hands-off" agreement alone, I don`t think so. While such an
    understanding is necessary for the BR world to function, the idea of
    humans raised to godhood "playing nicely" together at godhood
    (especially when you consider the good vs evil paradigm) without some
    higher balance enforcing the rule is, IMO, unlikely.

    Nor is a hands-off role easy to define. The gods interact in some way
    with the BR world, and even avatars of the gods are seen there from time
    to time. The line cannot be a sharp one, it will always be blurred.
    "Gray" conditions could be defined no matter how you look at it which
    will allow progeny between gods and humans.

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