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  1. #31
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by ryancaveney

    I think my personal choice for the method I`ll be using IMC is a
    combination of things Kenneth and Starfox have said which aren`t in "the
    proposals ™" -- the DM assigns the blood scores he wants you to have,
    and then you pick blood abilities based on your assigned score. The end.
    Ryan Caveney
    Their info wasn't included because no one sent me anything to include. I had asked repeatedly for proposals so that I could put them together in one document for ease of comparison, but only Shade, Gary, Mark V and Mark_Aurel bothered to send me anything.:)
    Duane Eggert

  2. #32
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 01:02 PM 6/10/2003 -0400, Daniel McSorley wrote:

    >The blood abilities are not effective on a domain level, nor should they
    >be. They work on the adventuring level, and that`s where the balance
    >needs to be. There are effectively two levels of game going on.

    A couple blood abilities are effective at the domain level. Most notably
    Battlewise and Courage, but other blood abilities could have an effect at
    the domain level. Detect Lie and Character Reading, for instance, could be
    useful as might just about any of the other blood abilities. I`ve fiddled
    around with using modifiers on domain actions from such blood abilities,
    and it makes pretty good sense when one has an articulated system of domain
    actions to combine them with effects from blood abilities.

    > > I think part of the problem is that, whether or not there is a fair way to
    > > balance scions vs. non-scions in terms of spell-or-feat-like blood
    > > abilities, there just isn`t any fair way to balance *regents* vs.
    > > non-regents
    >
    >There doesn`t need to be. Balance applies at the adventurer level.
    >Balancing a regent versus an adventurer is like trying to balance the
    >spellcasting of a wizard versus the spellcasting of a fighter- it just
    >doesn`t apply. Luckily, all the proposals seem to attempt to do the right
    >thing, which is to balance an adventuring scion with blood abilities
    >versus an adventuring non-scion. They all agree with you here, so what
    >is your complaint exactly?

    I`ve argued in the past that having access to a domain is very similar to
    having an inventory that contains gp value above and beyond that of a
    "typical" character of the level of the character. Adventure level events
    have less of an effect on the domain level (though I don`t think they are
    entirely divorced as has been suggested) but domain level effects can
    certainly have an effect at the adventure level. Regents engaging in
    adventures can literally call upon armies. They can quickly circumvent the
    local authorities--even call upon them to do as they are bid. Regents have
    access to real estate, personnel, wealth, not to mention the reputation and
    respect of the common citizenry. Normally an adventure contains aspects of
    investigation or preparation that involve such people and regents have
    access to things, or by their status a substantial advantage, that makes
    those aspects of play at the adventure level easier. They can also call
    upon experts and professionals to fight with, bring along siege equipment
    or sailing ships. These things are significant and should be at least
    noted by the DM when designing encounters and adventures.

    Now none of that means a regent`s domain is worth an ECL because that
    requires an XP expenditure for characters to level up, but it should be
    factored in when determining EL and CR awards since those factors relate to
    the difficulty of the encounter and the reward for that encounter. In
    fact, if one were to go by the basis of the DMG an "average" encounter
    would use up 25% of the character`s resources. A domain is a significant
    resource. In the past, I`ve fiddled around with such numbers and found
    that I could borrow a bit from the thinking of how to balance the EL of
    characters with too much or too little equipment. Basically if one goes by
    the chart of standard inventory gp values one can average the value of the
    character`s inventory with his character level in order to get a number for
    EL or CR awards. When it comes to a domain I`ve been fiddling around with
    the assumption that 2 levels of a holding or province population level
    equates to about 1 character level`s worth of equipment. That is a
    character who controls a Law(4) in a province would have 2 character levels
    worth of domain in his "inventory."

    Gary

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  3. #33
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>
    Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 2:45 PM


    > I think this is were you`ve confused me with the reference to suggestions
    > that being a ruler should come from aging has me confused. I don`t
    believe
    > that I`ve seen a proposal that being a ruler comes with aging (not
    directly
    > at least). I`m assuming that this was in relation to the scion class
    levels
    > discussions.

    Aging doesn`t cause rulership, its a consequence of it. Looking at real
    life executives of historical countries, many experience crises that seem to
    age them. This was a tossed off aside, I`m not going to work up mechanics
    for actually aging characters because they are rulers, I`m suggesting that
    the job in itself is really hard, look at how these historical guys were
    spent by the challenges of their rule.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  4. #34
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 11:03 PM 6/9/2003 -0500, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

    > > It`s kind of like the word "genius" which I`ve always considered a
    > > verb, but most people think is a noun.) I suspect it`s just a descriptor
    > > some people put on the combination of success and recognition in
    > > order to attempt to quantify something that is in many ways random
    > > or the result of cunning marketing. Many people are just as talented
    > > and capable as those that are lauded as "truly great" or whatever, but
    > > are overlooked for reasons having little to do with their work or
    > > productivity.
    >
    >For the purposes of fantasy gaming, I am willing to follow the lead of those
    >medieval admirers, the Romantics, who had very clear ideas about what genius
    >was and whose ideas greatly influence the current age. So the kinds of
    >things you see in the works of Shelley, Wordsworth, Keats, and Coleridge
    >about what constitutes genius, the heroic figure who struggles against
    >impossible odds, who understands things on a level unknown to common men.
    >This both suits the heroic tone of fantasy gaming (especially in BR) and is
    >quite compatable with our sources of the mediaval world in literature.
    >
    >While I do not generally take Romanticism seriously, and certainly not in
    >historical analysis, the genius in history is a Hegalian construction in
    >which the hero in history is the one who advances the inevitable cause,
    >Napoleon being the archtypical example, both for Hegal and for those who
    >employed his ideas of heroicism in history. One would like to think that
    >figures like Hitler and Stalin would have purged the idea of the hero in
    >history, but alas, it is not so.
    >
    >In fantasy gaming, I`m willing to indulge in the most heroic notions of
    >character, whether Romantic or Homeric.

    Well, we`re somewhat off topic here, but I`d like to scribble a few lines
    on this subject so I will. I`ll try to bring it back into some sort of BR
    relevance just so we have some sort of payoff for those who get that far....

    I do take Romanticism seriously, and would note that one really should
    throw Byron in there amongst the list of them since any roll call of the
    Romantics that doesn`t include him seems lacking somehow.

    However, in the case of the word "genius" I tend to harken back further
    than the 18th or 19th centuries to the origins of the word. The genesis of
    the word genius (if I can use that term without being too linguistically
    incestuous--genius and genesis have the same linguistic roots) is from the
    Greek concept of a personal tutelary deity. In many societies everything
    is attributed a spirit force. There are river gods, mountain gods, and
    along with them gods for every tributary and stream, hill and
    stone. Likewise, everyone has a personal god that grants knowledge and
    inspires creativity, and it is getting in touch with this genius that is
    amongst the highest of human activities. Think back to a time when you`ve
    been particularly creative or inspired. You know how it feels as if
    whatever it was you were creating didn`t really originate with you? That
    it somehow was implanted in your mind? That is your genius at work. It is
    the force that connected one to the divine capacity for learning and
    creation that seems outside the self. So if I can risk a bit more
    linguistic incest the genus of a person is the self, while the species of
    that person is his genius. A human is that person (genus) who gets in
    touch with his genius (species.)

    In modern parlance, of course, genius is used to describe someone who has a
    particular talent or is generally talented. "Bob is a genius." To me,
    however, that`s a misuse of the term. Genius is that force outside the
    self that inspires Bob and allows him to perform certain things with
    extraordinary, almost effortless grace, ability and aplomb. His skill
    seems magical. He seems touched by a divine, omnipotence that guides his
    movements and allows him to do things beyond the capabilities of
    humans. The concept of genius is that all that is true. It`s NOT Bob at
    work. It IS his genius gifting him with those abilities. Some people are
    more able to get in touch with their genius than others, but on the whole
    when someone does something that other people find extraordinary or
    inexplicable that`s their genius. When someone says "Bob is a genius" what
    that means to me is that "Bob is in touch with his genius" or "Bob`s genius
    is communicating with him." It`s an action, not a descriptive noun.

    Now, just for the sake of clarifying my take on this sort of thing and
    making sure everyone out there doesn`t think I`m an animist freak out
    trying to promote some flaky pagan agenda--I don`t think there`s a personal
    god of creativity. "Genius" is the term the ancient Greeks in their
    spiritist worldview put on the process of getting in touch with our own
    deep seated intellectual capacity. Our brains have vast, untapped
    resources, most of which are buzzing along in our subconscious minds
    24/7. An external genius does not exist any more than the Tooth
    Fairy. The process of getting in touch with our subconscious, however,
    very definitely does exist and that`s what I`m getting at here.

    When it comes to the Romantics, I`d definitely borrow from them their take
    on the heroic figure, their rather rosy view of the medieval period and
    their rather view of life as high drama, but I`d draw a distinction between
    genius and those things, and would suggest that in many cases the term
    genius was for them the same as that of the Greeks rather than an actual
    person.

    What`s all this got to do with anything Birthright related? Well, here it
    is: Genius = bloodline. What better analogy for a personal deity do we
    need than a bit of divine power actually connecting a character to the gods?

    In gaming terms one could embody this in many ways. The one that strikes
    me as being the most useful is some fairly recent discussion about the use
    of action points. Action points are used in certain settings/systems to
    allow characters to perform extraordinarily well on particular rolls or to
    access extraordinary powers. Generally, they allow a player to roll an
    additional d6 on any d20 check, or to activate a power that has magical
    effects. In BR one could give characters action points to spend--scions
    could get bonus action points based upon their bloodline strength or
    score. The recent discussion (actually it`s a perennial discussion) on how
    to handle bloodline in 3e/d20 could include such a factor as the basis for
    determining ECL since bloodline itself seems to be so difficult to
    quantify. If it grants action points then it`s easier to put a point value
    on it. Similarly, regents might spend RP in order to gain Action Points
    (the exchange rate might be 1:2 or higher) and thus effects of the domain
    upon EL and CR might similarly be quantified.

    Gary

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  5. #35
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    I`m sorry about not submitting a proposeal. I had
    origivally intended to make an official propoposal out
    of my ideas - but I`ve simply not had the time and
    inclination. Since my Birthright camaign is now
    basically finished, and I don`t really expect to go
    back to the setting in a while, my focus now lies
    elsewhere.

    If many people think it would be worthwhile, I could
    make a full proposal out of my ideas - though it would
    be very late. [My! Was that ever a blatant plug!]

    I`ll try to give another summing-up of my 1 1/2 year
    campaign, that ended with the death and (probaly -
    there is still a chance to stop it) deification of the
    Gorgon, after it is wholy finished - which I think
    will be tonight.

    The last session may involve a momentous lie told by a
    paladin of Avanale (godess of truth) or the fall of
    the empire just as it is about to rise from the ashes
    - a tough choice to make! The question: "Did you kill
    the Gorgon?" Full, true answer: "Yes. He allowed me to
    do so as a part of his personal deification plan and
    in order to make room for his son to re-create the
    empire".


    > irdeggman wrote:
    >
    > Their info wasn`t included because no one sent me
    > anything to include. I had asked repeatedly for
    > proposals so that I could put them together in one
    > document for ease of comparison, but only Shade,
    > Gary, Mark V and Mark_Aurel bothered to send me
    > anything.:)
    >
    >
    > Originally posted by ryancaveney[/i]
    >
    >> I think my personal choice for the method I`ll be
    >> using IMC is a
    >> combination of things Kenneth and Starfox have said
    >> which aren`t in "the
    >> proposals ™


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  6. #36
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by kgauck

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>
    Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 2:45 PM


    > I think this is were you`ve confused me with the reference to suggestions
    > that being a ruler should come from aging has me confused. I don`t
    believe
    > that I`ve seen a proposal that being a ruler comes with aging (not
    directly
    > at least). I`m assuming that this was in relation to the scion class
    levels
    > discussions.

    Aging doesn`t cause rulership, its a consequence of it. Looking at real
    life executives of historical countries, many experience crises that seem to
    age them. This was a tossed off aside, I`m not going to work up mechanics
    for actually aging characters because they are rulers, I`m suggesting that
    the job in itself is really hard, look at how these historical guys were
    spent by the challenges of their rule.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com
    To quote from the comics "With great power comes great responsibility." That pretty much sums it up I beleive.
    Duane Eggert

  7. #37
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Birthright-L


    I`m sorry about not submitting a proposeal. I had
    origivally intended to make an official propoposal out
    of my ideas - but I`ve simply not had the time and
    inclination. Since my Birthright camaign is now
    basically finished, and I don`t really expect to go
    back to the setting in a while, my focus now lies
    elsewhere.

    If many people think it would be worthwhile, I could
    make a full proposal out of my ideas - though it would
    be very late. [My! Was that ever a blatant plug!]
    I am not opposed to adding more proposals - but I don't want to have to "beg" for them. I do want this to proceed, the polls were started in March and the solicitation for proposals promptly followed in March/April with the posting of the combined proposal in late April. We need to have a committment (as a group) to get this project completed. One thing that all the proposals should have are variants to allow both a random and non-random generated system (see the most recent polls). If you (or anyone else) has any specific questions you can e-mail me - I'm just trying to help. If there are questions over that last statement then ask Shade/Mark V/or Geeman whether or not I tried (or was successful) to be helpful.

    My e-mail, again, is irdeggman@cox.net
    Duane Eggert

  8. #38
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    On Wed, 11 Jun 2003, Carl Cramér wrote:

    > If many people think it would be worthwhile, I could
    > make a full proposal out of my ideas - though it would
    > be very late. [My! Was that ever a blatant plug!]

    Yes! Gimme gimme. =)


    Ryan Caveney

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  9. #39
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    I am back all. :)

    I really like the B. one. It can be balanced and they must sacrafice exp to gain power.

    The only people who don't want it to be balanced with everything else are power gamers hiding as roleplayers.

  10. #40
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    Actually, what were the final numbers for or against the blood stat? The only poll I found had more for than against, but as you seem to be going ahead with scrapping the blood-stat (the original treatment of it anyway), I'm assuming there was another poll, yes?

    CM.

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