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  1. #1
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    As promised, once the Chapter 2 poll results were tallied a proposal with several choices for blood score determinination was developed. It tool a little longer to get it together than I originally thought but here it is. Time to look them over, make comments and then we'll decide which one(s) or combination we (the netforce) likes best and proeed from there.

    http://www.tuarhievel.org/Blood%20Score%20...20Proposals.pdf
    Duane Eggert

  2. #2
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    Hmmm - I didn't realize you were going to post this now - I'll finish up my own version in a hurry and post it later today, then.
    Jan E. Juvstad.

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    I started a tabletop game about 3 weeks ago using the playtest
    version. Several of my players were a bit relunctant at first because
    they had always played Birthright using 2nd edition rules. After a short
    adjustment period they started to find the template system even
    better then the 2nd ed. rules on bloodlines. The emplate system,
    while being different, still keeps the "flavor" of the original game.

    After a suggestion from a player we did make a slight adjustment,
    we introduced a Tainted scion template (no blood abilities and + 0 ECL).
    This gave that player the potential to enventually develop is bloodline,
    while not requiring 5000xp + for is 1st level character to gain a level.

    Azazel

  4. #4
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Azazel


    I started a tabletop game about 3 weeks ago using the playtest
    version. Several of my players were a bit relunctant at first because
    they had always played Birthright using 2nd edition rules. After a short
    adjustment period they started to find the template system even
    better then the 2nd ed. rules on bloodlines. The emplate system,
    while being different, still keeps the "flavor" of the original game.

    After a suggestion from a player we did make a slight adjustment,
    we introduced a Tainted scion template (no blood abilities and + 0 ECL).
    This gave that player the potential to enventually develop is bloodline,
    while not requiring 5000xp + for is 1st level character to gain a level.

    Azazel
    A "minor" template would require no ECL and allow a character to have only "minor" blood abilities but not the other benefits associated with the ECL templates (e.g., bonus hit points, starting equipment). In essence a "tainted" blood line is a minor template with a blood score of less than 12 (no associated blood abilites). In order to have the "minor" template a charater must use one of his 7 initial ability scores for a blood line.

    You need to ensure that you are not allowing a player to take the best six scores, assign them to his standard ability scores and then essentially "reroll" the 7th score at a later time so that he can have a higher blood score. The point of this trade off was to have the player make a choice as to what he wants his character to be good at, similarly to assigning the highest standard ability scores to the abilities that the player wants his character to be better at.
    Duane Eggert

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    I don't remember who's post I saw this in, but I remember someone had converted the standard 3-18 ability score range to a "dice determiner" - e.g. rather than rolling d% to determine bloodline strength and dice for determining score, the d% range was tied to an "ability score" range. If someone could point this out to me, I'd appreciate it! ([_]

    Lysander
    Lysander
    Defender of the Second Edition
    Junior Moderator, Project Gemengan, Worlds of D&D

  6. #6
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Any comments on these proposals yet? Its been almost 2 weeks and the only posts have not really been comments/questions on the proposals.

    I don't want to go more than another couple of weeks before a new vote or else this process will drag out forever - we need to work towards the goal of getting an "official baseline" ruleset.:)
    Duane Eggert

  7. #7
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    All right, sorry for this but I just received a "late entry" for blood score proposals. Here's the link to the updated file, it's a zip file now instead of a .pdf. I figured people might have had a hard time downloading it due to size before. Please look these over and comment so that we can move on towards getting this project progressed. Thanks.:)


    http://www.tuarhievel.org/Blood%20Score%20...sals%205-15.zip
    Duane Eggert

  8. #8
    Member Keovar's Avatar
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    Repost from the "ranting" thread... I would vote for something similar to the following:

    ***

    I like the idea of having Bloodline as an ability score. With 4d6/drop lowest, it doesn't cost you anything, and with 32 point buy, you should be able to spend a few on raising it along with your other stats. If you want to play a commoner, the points you save by leaving your bloodline at 8 are a nice little compensation bonus, like the 10% experience bonus was in 2e. Spending alot on bloodline gets you powers there, but it mean you are less powerful in other areas, so it should balance alright. ECL templates that increase the bloodline score could be added to this as well.


    *******
    My rough draft take on the system...
    ---

    9 and lower are unblooded, and for the most part there is no difference between 1 or 9, except when determining the chance for a commoner to absorb a bloodline through bloodtheft, to be successfully invested with a bloodline, or other ways to become a scion later in life. It's possible for someone to actually absorb some divine bloodline but not get enough to count as blooded (10 and over)

    10 = 0 (just barely qualifying as a scion)

    11 = 0.5 points to buy a tainted blood power

    12 - 13 = 1 point to buy minor or lesser blood power(s)

    14 - 15 = 2 points to buy major or lesser blood power(s)

    16 - 17 = 3 points to buy major or lesser blood power(s)

    18 - 19 = 4 points to buy great or lesser blood power(s)

    20 - 21 = 5 points to buy great or lesser blood power(s)

    22 - 23 = 6 points to buy great or lesser blood power(s)

    24 - 25 = 7 points to buy great or lesser blood power(s)

    26 -27 = 8 points to buy true or lesser blood power(s)

    Etc...

    ---

    Blood power levels

    Tainted - cost: 0.5 - Bloodmark is the only one I can think of that should be demoted to this level, though there may be other ones that should be dropped as well, or new ones could be created.

    Minor - cost 1 - most minor abilities would remain here, but should be reviewed for balance, since randomness will not be used as a balancing factor (it's a damn poor balance in the first place).

    Major - cost 2 - Again, review needed. Since Ability increases would need to be +2, they should be moved to major.

    Great - cost 4 - review for balance...

    True - cost 8 - Invulnerability should be moved here, perhaps a couple others.

    ---

    When converting NPCs, simply ignore the old 2e bloodline strength score, and give them a bloodline ability score that allows them to have all the appropriate powers in their description.

  9. #9
    Kalien
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    Originally posted by Keovar
    I like the idea of having Bloodline as an ability score. With 4d6/drop lowest, it doesn't cost you anything, and with 32 point buy, you should be able to spend a few on raising it along with your other stats. ...
    Personally, I dislike treating Bloodline as another ability score. Here are a few of my reasons why:

    1. I like to develop a character concept first and then determine things like ability scores that fit that character concept. Rolling 4d6 six times (even if I drop the lowest and arrange them as I want) does not mean I will get the character I want to play. Therefore, I prefer point buy systems so that everyone in the game starts on an even playing field as far as ability scores (or Bloodline) are concerned while I retain control over the shaping on my character. (This point applies to my preferences concerning rolling dice to shape a character - it obviously doesn't just concern Bloodline determination)

    2. I feel that using a point buy system to determine ability scores *and* Bloodline is counter-intuitive and makes very little sense from an "in-game" perspective - and I like my games to make sense. (I can see reasons purely for game balance - but I'll deal with that in my next point). If we take the idea that I have 32 points to spend on six ability scores and a bloodline score, then we end up with what seems to me the non-sensical result that, in general terms, the more divine essense I have running through my veins and bestowing mighty powers, the weaker, more clumsy, less robust, stupider, more weak-willed, and more unimpressive I am. Or conversely, the more ordinary I am in a world surrounded by near godlike beings, the stronger, faster, more robust, more intelligence, wiser, and more impressive I will be compared to those near godlike beings. To me, this just doesn't make sense.

    The rules of character creation should be applied to game NPCs as well as PCs. Yet, by treating bloodline as another ability score under a point buy system, we cannot create almost any of the NPCs from Ruins of Empire. Now while Darien Avan is an exceptional character we should be able to at least play scions with major bloodlines in domain games without ending up with the result that someone with a bloodline (in RoE) in the 40s such as Heirl Diem, Carilon Alam, the Mhor, etc, can hardly get out of bed because their character ability scores are so low due to the fact that they have a close connection to the old gods.

    3. While treating bloodline as another ability score with a point buy system makes sense to me from a purely game balance perspective, I like my game mechanics to make sense - not be counter-intuitive. This very reasoning was one of the major reasons why WotC developed 3rd edition - to replace the counter-intuitive game mechanics of 2nd edition where a bonus was sometimes a negative number, but sometimes not, where a penalty was sometimes a positive number, and sometimes not, etc. Creating a game mechanic that does not make sense (to me at least) purely for the purpose of game balance strikes me as a step backwards.

    4. I also dislike the idea of Bloodlines having a divine modifier, just as Ability Scores have modifiers. In order to get a positive modifier with your bloodline you need a bloodline of at least 12 - and as some blood abilities in Doom's work use half your divine modifier you really want at least a 14. Anything below these limits means that you are blooded and yet many of the blooded abilities cannot be used. But in order to get a score at least this high means you exacerbate the problem I mentioned in point 2.


    These are my major objections to treating Bloodline as another ability score. There was no need for it in 2nd edition and I don't see any need for it now in 3rd edition besides game balance. I would prefer to simply tell players that their bloodlines will be determined in conjunction with the DM to fit their character concept and the power level of the current game. Trusting the DM to maintain a little balance in their own game doesn't strike me as necessarily a bad thing - especially if it means I get to play in a game that, to me anyway, makes sense.

  10. #10
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    2. I feel that using a point buy system to determine ability scores *and* Bloodline is counter-intuitive and makes very little sense from an "in-game" perspective - and I like my games to make sense. (I can see reasons purely for game balance - but I'll deal with that in my next point). If we take the idea that I have 32 points to spend on six ability scores and a bloodline score, then we end up with what seems to me the non-sensical result that, in general terms, the more divine essense I have running through my veins and bestowing mighty powers, the weaker, more clumsy, less robust, stupider, more weak-willed, and more unimpressive I am. Or conversely, the more ordinary I am in a world surrounded by near godlike beings, the stronger, faster, more robust, more intelligence, wiser, and more impressive I will be compared to those near godlike beings. To me, this just doesn't make sense.
    Having bloodline doesn't _make_ character more clumsy etc etc... It is matter of choice. Minor template gives bloodline of 8 (or was it 6), major templater give +4 bonus to bl strength, great template gives +8 and true +12. If player chooses to buy lot of bloodline in beginning of game, it is up to him. It same with all the abilities, if you choose to have high intelligence, rest of your abilities will be lower. I don't remember if those template bonusses were cumulative, but if they were, character with great template has blooline strenght of 8(6) + 4 + 8 = 20(18) where to begin. I don't think there is big need to add bl with your stat points, but if you wan't, it is up to you.
    I do believe
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