Birthright Campaign played- need info

[Lord Grave]

> Questions:
> 1. A racial question. Is it "Cerilian" (read: fit the campaign feel) to
> be a dwarven king of a human kingdom? The story is simple: Marlae Roesone
> had a daughter and, at the time of her death, invested her power into
> Vorwyck, her dwarven lieutenant, until her daughter comes of age. The
> other one, Bran the Halfling, was the dwarf`s lieutenant until he wanted
> a place to fit in- had to make that one up in the fly (he changed gods
> from Moradin to Haelyn so his character fit, but he kept the brewmaster
> title). Just wondering.

It`s totally non-Anuirean. Anuireans are very xenophobic. Even marrying a non-Anuirean can have negative impact on regent`s bloodline. Anuirean realm with Dwarf as regent would probably be attacked by every other realm.

>
> 2. When the elf king moved into Aerenwe, he wanted it to be in his family
> for many, many generations to give him his elf kingdom close to the other
> players. I let this happen and don`t regret it, cause he started a war
> with Roesone to take back what was "rightfully his"- Abbatuor, the last
> bit of the Erebannien. Was a great move, but my question is about the
> three provinces that weren`t forest- what do I do then? Should I allow
> the elves to live there, in the plains, and raise the province level from
> 5/1 to 5/5 (ect.) to reflect this? Or should I turn it into forest? I
> don`t know exactly how it`ll change gameplay, so I`m presenting it to
> you. Which leads to....

Maybe allow the Elves to plant forest in the provinces. It would probably require some kind of Build action that takes a lot of time. If they have a wizard, they could also develop a realm spell that speeds up the growth of forests. As the forests grow to take over the plains, you can slowly increase the maximum magical potential of the province.

However, you should also keep in mind than Anuireans, especially those who still believe in the Empire, would take this as loss of Anuirean territory and do everything to regain it. Diemed comes to my mind, for example, and Osoerde could certainly use an excuse.

>
> 3. The High Mage insists that if, in fact, those WERE plains with 5/5 or
> 6/6 then she should have those source levels automatically. I think it
> would make her more powerful than she needs to be. My question- should I
> let her be the only one with control of sources after (if) I raise these?
> Or should I let the Swamp Mage or Second Swamp mage have some free sources
> to fill in the gaps?

I guess they now have level 0 sources, right? If the magical potential increases, it cannot be automatically harnessed. Wizards would have to spend rule actions to attract newly available mebhaighl to their sources.

>
> 4. With the mage class, the High Mage decided she wanted to specialise (?)
> in Water Magic because she had Masela`s bloodline. Is this also Cerilian?
> I figured it was because of the inherent natural property of arcane magic
> in BR but wanted a second opinion.

According to Birthright rules, Wizards cannot specialize. According to core AD&D rules, there is no elemental specialization. I think this is your judgement only. If you think that letting High Mage specialize in water magic wouldn`t hurt the campaign, then just do it. Maybe you could forget the specialization and let her have a blood ability that makes her water-based spells stronger?

Btw, speaking of water deities, I have toyed with the idea of Sea Druids who worship Nesirie.

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[ConjurerDragon]

Milos Rasic wrote:

>Maybe allow the Elves to plant forest in the provinces. It would probably require some kind of Build action that takes a lot of time. If they have a wizard, they could also develop a realm spell that speeds up the growth of forests.
>
Not rather druids? The 3E PHB spell Plant Growth (Drd 3, Plant 3, Rgr 3)
would be the approbiate basic spell to research a Realm spell from in my
opinion and the spell is not in the arcane spell list in 3E anymore. If
2E is used they could either search for a wizard capable of casting the
4th level wizard spell plant growth or a druid.

>>. With the mage class, the High Mage decided she wanted to specialise (?)
>>in Water Magic because she had Masela`s bloodline. Is this also Cerilian?
>>I figured it was because of the inherent natural property of arcane magic
>>in BR but wanted a second opinion.
>>
>According to Birthright rules, Wizards cannot specialize.
>
If he uses 2E Birthright, then he can specialize (p. 12 Birthright
rulebook "They may choose to be mages or specialist wizards of any
school EXCEPT ILLUSION AND DIVINATION."
bye
Michael Romes

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[Nikolai II]

Dwarf: According to Moradins laws (in the version used by Baruk-Azhik) maybe he couldn't be a good leader. But maybe he's just a bad dwarf? Might that be why he's out among the humans instead of cooped up in his hole together with his homogenous brethren?;)
And as for humans not allowing rule.. there are elves (Tuarhievel) that could accept a human as interim leader (as in - the next decade or two). Sure there could be racist troubles, but that is more up to their campaign, and it shouldn't (in any campaign) be allowed to overshadow the fun.:)
(On another 'Xenophobic' note we have Elinie, with heathen assassins as leaders, and everyone is happy about that)

Building a new elven kingdom when a similiar one exists (Sielwode) sounds like a lot of work for little use, but I guess it is your campaign. If you dont want to change places of the two nations then we go to your setting; if elves have always ruled there then the forests will still be there, and with sources intact.
However the High Mage will (should) get squat, since all new sources should be under tight control by an elven mage, if not under the PCs court then a rebel (maybe a rebel, someone friendly towards humans :P) (Remember that the original 'High Mage' doesn't even manage to wrest control of sources away from Rogr Aglondier.

[ryancaveney]

On Mon, 21 Apr 2003, Landen_Haesri wrote:

> The elf king in Aerenwe hates humans. Absolutely.

Good for him! =)

> (he thought that Rhoubhe was an awesome example, and he just wanted to
> be an evil king in general).

Yeah, I love the Manslayer, too.

> We all decided that the kingdom of Aerenwe is and always has been
> populated with elves (like the Sielwode). Thats why I needed to know
> what to do with the plains... since elves have lived there the entire
> time, the province ratings were technically never reduced

Oh, that`s easy then -- those provinces are all still Ancient Forest!
If the elves never left, the trees were never cut down.

> The high mage in question rolled up a great bloodline score with
> Masela as her derivation, which is the only reason she decided to
> become an elementalist of water. She also chose the (now war-torn)
> province of Abbatuor as her home so she could be closer to the
> coastline of Anuire and have contact with the various magical
> underwater creatures.

Very sensible of her! This is excellent roleplaying material.

> She also wants to try and make her own realm spells that include the
> ocean at some point. I thought that was cool.

I agree. This is a character concept definitely worth exploring. At the
very least, there`s plenty of flavor text to play with. For example, in
coastal provinces her Mass Destruction spells would always appear as tidal
waves -- you could even try making rules tweaks based on this, such as
making Mass Destruction cheaper for her along the water (especially
against ships at sea) but impossible too far inland...

> On the specialist mage POV, does anyone have suggestions on what
> should/should not be allowed?

I think bloodline should get into it, as you and your player have done.
I wouldn`t allow a scion of Basaia`s derivation to become a water
elementalist (because fire opposes water), but I would encourage those of
Masela`s to do so (as your player chose). That covers four of them; then
note that Vorynn makes for good force mages, and Azrai for shadow. As
always, what exactly to do with Brenna is the hardest problem. From my
previous arguments on the topic, I`d be tempted to suggest chronomancy,
except that IMO time-travel is way too powerful to allow anyone to have;
but some of the other time magic, like the various Articus`s spells (Melee
Manager, Devolutionary Warrior, et al.) could be good.

> And the dimensionalist is also cool, possibly pulling its magic from
> the Shadow World.

Yes, the Shadow World is a great source for all sorts of weird and scary
magic, and "secrets man was not meant to know" -- it`s a fine place to
find Cthulhuesque powers of madness. (Hey, maybe the Cold Rider is really
Nyarlathotep!)


Ryan Caveney

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[ryancaveney]

On Mon, 21 Apr 2003, Michael Romes wrote:

> Milos Rasic wrote:
>
> > Maybe allow the Elves to plant forest in the provinces. It would
> > probably require some kind of Build action that takes a lot of
> > time. If they have a wizard, they could also develop a realm spell
> > that speeds up the growth of forests.
> >
> Not rather druids? The 3E PHB spell Plant Growth (Drd 3, Plant 3, Rgr 3)
> would be the approbiate basic spell to research a Realm spell from in my
> opinion and the spell is not in the arcane spell list in 3E anymore.

This is precisely why my thoughts about 3e BR include making druid the
basis for all the Sidhelien (and prohibiting it to humans) -- at the very
least, they simply must have free access to every spell that has anything
to do with plants. For any human, even a chosen of Erik, to have a closer
relationship with Cerilia`s trees than an elf strikes me as completely wrong.


Ryan Caveney

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[ConjurerDragon]

Ryan B. Caveney wrote:

>On Mon, 21 Apr 2003, Michael Romes wrote:
>
>>Not rather druids? The 3E PHB spell Plant Growth (Drd 3, Plant 3, Rgr 3)
>>would be the approbiate basic spell to research a Realm spell from in my
>>opinion and the spell is not in the arcane spell list in 3E anymore.
>>
>This is precisely why my thoughts about 3e BR include making druid the
>basis for all the Sidhelien (and prohibiting it to humans) -- at the very
>least, they simply must have free access to every spell that has anything
>to do with plants. For any human, even a chosen of Erik, to have a closer
>relationship with Cerilia`s trees than an elf strikes me as completely wrong.
>Ryan Caveney
>
Maybe they have a closer relation with trees (and I hope you don´t mean
that in the sense Robinson Crusoe did ;-))
but they do not cast divine spells as they do not worship gods.

If these "relationship" with trees is a racial thing, then your
suggestion to limit the druid class to elves is not correct. Then you
would have to add a racial ability, like e.g. "Hiding in trees" (as
described in the novel Greatheart for the elves of Sielwode) or "Feel
the emotions of trees" as elven racial abilitys.

A druid would be able to let a tree grow faster and larger with his
spells and one druid became the treant (Blood Enemies book) and there
are even in our times people who talk with their plants to have them
grow better ;-)
bye
Michael Romes

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[ConjurerDragon]

Nikolai II wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1585
>Nikolai II wrote:
> Dwarf: According to Moradins laws (in the version used by Baruk-Azhik) maybe he couldn`t be a good leader.
>
> But maybe he`s just a bad dwarf? Might that be why he`s out among the humans instead of cooped up in his hole together with his homogenous brethren?;)
>
That is likely.
A dwarf outside and far away of the dwarven realms is unlikely to exist.
At the very least he would deprive his clan of a worker and his thane of
a fighter against the orog menace - so EITHER he is out side the dwarven
realm on a purpose (e.g. sent out as a spy, scout, trader) or he is a
renegade. As a renegade he may be an outcast who commited a crime
against these very laws, or just an independent spirit who does not fit
into the lawful dwarven society.

But both options do not make him a better regent - just the opposite.
Both options mean that he either has hidden plans/motives as his loyalty
is with his own clan, or that his loyalty is only with himself, as he
already once put his own interests above the interests of the community.

Another option came to my mind: He need not be from Baruk-Ahzik. Maybe
he is from Mur-Kilad? And an agent of the Gorgon who in his hideout
celebrates as his puppet now controls one of the realms in the south... <eg>

>And as for humans not allowing rule.. there are elves (Tuarhievel) that could accept a human as interim leader (as in - the next decade or two). Sure there could be racist troubles, but that is more up to their campaign, and it shouldn`t (in any campaign) be allowed to overshadow the fun.:)
>
That is the major point that annoys lots of people in that Players
Secrets. Actually the only elf who choose to have that human female as
regent is the Prince Fhilereane himself. And the only thing that stops
the VERY VERY STRONG anti-human party lead by Rhuandice from killing
this whore on the throne and claiming the throne for a pure sidhelien
ruler is that she is pregnant with the child of Fhilereane. At least
that is the only reason I could see why they did not already assasinate
her. That the ex-wife of the Gorgon helps her must make her something
like Satan incarnate in the eyes of the elves... ;-)

>(On another `Xenophobic` note we have Elinie, with heathen assassins as leaders, and everyone is happy about that)
>
You can bet that not everybody is happy about that. And that warlike
neighbours like Ghoere can use that as a good excuse if they ever decide
to march east again - after all it´s for the good of the empire and
Haelyn, or not?

That the people of Elinie themselves do not rebel is understandable as
the now ruling Khinasi have overthrown a tyrant - just like Queen
Swordwraith did in Aerenwe. They are foreign, but they are heroes to the
populace who suffered under the tyrant.
bye
Michael Romes

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[Nikolai II]

Well, I might point out that I'm not really against forbidding everything, or forcing the players to play humans, as I mentioned above. And if it is allowed it should quickly fall down into bigotry and constant assassinations and wars, not giving any free time to do anything other than fighting and dying. (At least that is how it sounds in this thread).

I just wanted to show that options exist beyond the fundamentalist approach. If one wants Cerilia to have a flair of its own then total racial war might be fun, but if you just want to use it as a nice fantasy setting then that should (IMHO) be possible as well.

([_]

[ryancaveney]

On Mon, 21 Apr 2003, Michael Romes wrote:

> but they do not cast divine spells as they do not worship gods.

IMO you have hold of the wrong end of the stick (tree branch :).

I don`t care what`s considered divine or arcane or whatever else --
IMO, if it`s a spell that affects plants, elves are good at casting it.
Everything else I reverse-engineer from there. Same thing goes for other
"natural world" type things (animals, meld into stone, etc.) plus illusion
and charm. I also take away or drastically alter the fire spells from the
standard druid list, since fire is much too dangerous to use near trees.

> If these "relationship" with trees is a racial thing, then your
> suggestion to limit the druid class to elves is not correct. Then you
> would have to add a racial ability, like e.g. "Hiding in trees" (as
> described in the novel Greatheart for the elves of Sielwode) or "Feel
> the emotions of trees" as elven racial abilitys.

On the contrary, I think it`s exactly the way to go -- along the lines of
the Savage Species concept, I think the best way to see the 3e PHB druid
class in Cerilia is precisely as the class instantiation of the Elf racial
type. Rather than fight over ECLs of templates, assign everything that
could be considered a Sidhelien racial ability to a "druid" class level,
reorder the existing class abilities a little (e.g., move Timeless Body
from 15th level to 5th, so it kicks in at age 25-30), and rename the class
Sidhe, not druid. Then treat priests of Erik as clerics, just like the
priests of all the other human gods, albeit with a druid-like spell list.
You can still *call* priests of Erik "druids", and still not use that word
to apply to elves, but IMO from the Cerilian POV the 3e PHB "druid" class
describes a typical Sidhe far better than a Rjurik religious leader.

> A druid would be able to let a tree grow faster and larger with his
> spells and one druid became the treant (Blood Enemies book)

I think human priests of Erik should *also* have tree-helping spells, and
would turn into treants if they could choose their bloodform, but I think
as a class they are basically the same thing as all other clerics (except
for spell selection and skill lists, which I think should be
differentiated for all religions anyway). What I regard as fundamentally
unacceptable is the notion that Cerilian elves are forbidden from casting
precisely those spells which strike me as by far the most thematically
appropriate, namely most of the druid list.


Ryan Caveney

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[ryancaveney]

On Mon, 21 Apr 2003, Michael Romes wrote:

> In the 3E draft as far as I understand the battlefield is still as
> small as in 2E (3X5) but now no stacking is allowed. This means every
> battle will be only a minor skirmish with most of the army in reserve
> when two large armies meet. In addition archers will be vulnerable
> and pikemen useless - archers can`t fire OVER pikemen as archers still
> can shoot only into the next square and pikemen can`t jump in front of
> the archers when the enemy`s cavalry charge arrives...

That`s exactly why in my personal homebrew modification of the war card
rules, when I reduced the stacking limit to just one I also greatly
increased the size of the battlefield (roughly 20x30 is the smallest I
ever use, and for battles with lots of units I just use progressively
bigger maps) and roughly tripled all ranges and movements: I essentially
take the old battlemap space to be a 3x3 group of spaces on my map (I
actually use hexes, so each old-style battlemap space converts roughly to
a 7-hex "circle" of radius one). This also allows me to introduce some
finer-scale differences: for example, pikemen in my system now properly
move even slower than all other heavy infantry, and thrown missile weapons
have a much shorter range than fired ones.


Ryan Caveney

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