Feat/Skill based scion

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>
Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2003 5:25 PM


> That`s a rather artificial distinction that doesn`t really have any
> effective value unless it`s going to accompany a lot of additional
> material.

The way I read Mssr Rahvin`s post was that the standard against which scions
are to be balanced are challenges, not non-scions. If both scions and
non-scions are well balanced against the scale of challenges, then I can
have fun with all encounters. If I get bogged down in balancing scions vs
non-scions I must be responding to the fear of player resentment (he`s got a
better PC) rather than total enjoyment. I suspect that if both scions and
non-scions are independently balanced against encounters, they are
reasonably well balanced against each other as well.

Then again, maybe I just read more into that than there was. Lord Rahvin
will set me strait if I did.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[geeman]

At 01:56 AM 4/20/2003 +0200, irdeggman wrote:

>Concentration is a skill check made to ensure that the act of casting a
>spell can continue. Not to see if one can cast the spell. The conditions
>that require a concentration check are basically taking damage at the time
>of casting a spell (or being counter spelled) but the act (damage
>received, etc.) occurs at the time the spell is being cast. So it is not
>really a check to cast but a check to see if the caster`s concentration
>can be maintained on the task at hand.

Yeah, it`s a subtle distinction, but one that I suppose really has pretty
extensive implications. In a like manner an aid check (which was also
brought up) differs quite a bit from the type of check to get a bonus for a
couple of reasons. It might sound silly, but in it`s most basic form the
biggest difference is that it`s not the same player who makes that check
(unless he`s playing both characters.) An aid check is a character making
a check to assist another character, which may slow down play as much as
any other check does, but because it includes more players its not as
notable a pause. In fact, I`d argue that its a more inclusive thing since
more players get involved in the action.

Note that I would like to see a skill-based magic system. (Just about
anything would be an improvement over D&D`s magic system IMO.) In the case
of blood abilities I`m not sure a skill based approach is the best one, but
it would be interesting to see someone put one together.... It took me
about a month to write up the BP system stuff, though, and that was done
after a lot of thought had already been put into the ideas expressed, so I
think it might take an awful lot of effort to put together.

>Taking 10 in combat is pretty much not going to happen. Taking 10 means
>taking 10 times the normal amount of time required to do something. A
>skill normally takes a standard action to use and hence it would take 10
>rounds to take 10, taking 20 is listed as taking 2 minutes for a standard
>action skill. The mechanic needs to be tweaked somehow if this was to be a
>"norm".

Actually, taking 10 takes the same amount of time that a normal skill check
takes. It`s just that one assumes "the average" roll for an "average"
effort at a task that doesn`t have any particular negative consequences
and/or is performed with no threat or distraction to the character. Taking
20 does take x20 times the standard length of time for a check as it
assumes the character is performing the task 20 times so that he would "on
average" get a 20 over that period of time.

You know, I never thought about it, really, but what happens when
character(s) aid a character who is taking 20 on a skill check? Is it even
possible? I`m curious because it could have far reaching effects at, for
instance, the domain level of play....

Gary

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[Peter Lubke]

On Sat, 2003-04-19 at 07:58, Lord Rahvin wrote:
Damn, I hate defending ecliptic, but I also hate seeing ideas just discarded
outright, so here`s some thoughts on the subject of blood abilities written
up using the d20 skill mechanics.


> I do not believe that acquiring abilities based upon a skill level can be properly balanced without revamping the entire skill system.

It doesn`t have to revamp the whole skill system, just take advantage of the
skill mechanics without having the disadvantage of allocating skill points
from other areas. So just don`t use skill points. You could use something
else that uses the skill point mechanic.

<<SNIP>>

This is one example of how you could reflect blood abilities using the skill
system without completely revamping everything, throwing everything out of
balance, or wrecking the d20 system, or some other similiarly ambiguous
catastrophe.

-Lord Rahvin

Well argued.

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[irdeggman]

Originally posted by geeman>Taking 10 in combat is pretty much not going to happen. Taking 10 means
>taking 10 times the normal amount of time required to do something. A
>skill normally takes a standard action to use and hence it would take 10
>rounds to take 10, taking 20 is listed as taking 2 minutes for a standard
>action skill. The mechanic needs to be tweaked somehow if this was to be a
>"norm".

Actually, taking 10 takes the same amount of time that a normal skill check
takes. It`s just that one assumes "the average" roll for an "average"
effort at a task that doesn`t have any particular negative consequences
and/or is performed with no threat or distraction to the character. Taking
20 does take x20 times the standard length of time for a check as it
assumes the character is performing the task 20 times so that he would "on
average" get a 20 over that period of time.
Gary

True enough, the PHB doesn't say that taking 10 takes 10 times as long. It does under taking 20. It does however say, "When you ar not in a rush and not being threatened or distracted, you may choose to take 10. . ..Distractions or threats make it impossible for a character to take 10." So taking 10 in an initiative order situation would generally be eliminated from the possible.

Sage advice also clarified this as taking 10 is just being careful not taking any longer (like taking 20). So I fully agree with you and I was making an assumption on this point without checking all the rules (my bad).

You know, I never thought about it, really, but what happens when
character(s) aid a character who is taking 20 on a skill check? Is it even
possible? I`m curious because it could have far reaching effects at, for
instance, the domain level of play....

As far as taking 20 on the domain level of play. This would be really hard, since taking 20 does require 20 times the length of time to perform the check. Most domain level actions are assumed to take the better part of a month to actually perform, not a single round (like an ordinary skill) so that would translate into 20 months (or so depending on exactly how long the specific action is taking as a base). Taking 10 on the other hand. . . I'll leave this issue to Mark_Aurel to address, since he is the specific Chapter editor for domain play chapter.

[Birthright-L]

> ecliptic wrote:
> Bloodsteal: To determine if you have stolen the scion`s bloodline. Do an
opposed roll against the enemy scion`s Bloodline skill. If you match it or
beat his roll, you obtain bloodline skill ranks. The gain the number of
ranks by how much you beat him by.
>

Maybe I`m commenting out of context, but this seems ALL wrong. It should be
easier to steal bloodline from someone with a higher rating, so it is if the
opposed roll FAILS that you should get a bonus.

/Carl

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[ryancaveney]

On Sat, 19 Apr 2003, Gary wrote:

> Taking 20 does take x20 times the standard length of time for a check
> as it assumes the character is performing the task 20 times so that he
> would "on average" get a 20 over that period of time.

Another technical point: the character doesn`t "on average" get a 20 --
rather the character gets one of each roll from 1 through 20 inclusive.
Therefore it cannot be used in a situation where a low roll would produce
some sort of critical failure which would prevent the process from being
completed (e.g. climbing while risking a fatal fall).

> You know, I never thought about it, really, but what happens when
> character(s) aid a character who is taking 20 on a skill check?
> Is it even possible?

I would be inclined to think so, but I`m not certain. Part of it depends
on exactly how the aid check itself is implemented. If the aider is
taking 10 on the aid attempt, then since that level of performance can be
maintained indefinitely, it should certainly be allowed to aid someone who
is taking 20. On the other hand, if for some reason the task was
difficult enough that both the aider and the aidee needed to roll 20s at
the same time, then the total task ought to take 400 times as long!

> I`m curious because it could have far reaching effects at, for
> instance, the domain level of play....

I think that here we can save ourselves by stating that a single action
resolution attempt for any domain-affecting skill roll takes a whole
action round. Taking 20 would take 20 action rounds -- nearly two whole
years -- and be the only domain action the regent could attempt. That
should make taking 20 at the domain level not much of an issue.


Ryan Caveney

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[ryancaveney]

On Fri, 18 Apr 2003, Lord Rahvin wrote:

> A person with a minor bloodline, for example, might get 2 points per
> level. A person with a major bloodline might get 3 and a person with a
> great bloodline might get 4. These are spent like skill points,
> except only among the "blood skills" (or whatever you want to call them).
>
> Hence, at 1st level, the character gets all his blood abilities at
> once by however that`s determined. (I`m inclined to suggest the
> standard 2e method using the charts in the Book of Regency.) But,
> those blood abilities aren`t especially useful until the character
> levels up and starts allocating his blood ability points between his
> various "blood skills".

I like this. I really like this. I want to say something more useful at
some point, but it will take me some time to work out exactly what.

But right now, I want to say again -- I really like this approach.


Ryan Caveney

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[Shade]

At 12:28 AM 4/18/2003 +0200, you wrote:
>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1578
>
> ecliptic wrote:
> It is by far the most simple way and it seems to be able to be the most
balanced aswell as keeping with the setting.

You state this as if it were a fact. It isn`t. It`s your opinion, and I
disagree with it.

This system has at least one major flaw. One of the fantastic things about
Birthright is that a low-level character can have extraordinary powers
because of a bloodline. Under your system, because a low-level character
can`t have 15 or 20 ranks in a skill, that character can`t manifest any
great blood abilities.

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[Shade]

>Personally I think it should stay Charisma modifier. Charisma is already
an underpowered ability score and it would help balance it atleast in BR.

Charisma is underpowered?! Charisma is the most powerful ability score.. it
is the only one that (with the proper prestige classes) factors into
spellcasting, turning undead, initiative, armor class, damage, and saving
throws in addition to being the prime roleplaying/leadership stat.

About the only core mechanic that isn`t potentially affected by Charisma is
hit points.

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[Birthright-L]

One problem I see with this is that if the characters roll everything at
the start, some people may be inclined not to follow the scion path if
they don`t roll very well to begin with. THis would certainly reduce the
number of "lower bloodline" scions/regents in campaigns..
Dark


On Mon, 21 Apr 2003, Ryan B. Caveney wrote:

> On Fri, 18 Apr 2003, Lord Rahvin wrote:
>
> > A person with a minor bloodline, for example, might get 2 points per
> > level. A person with a major bloodline might get 3 and a person with a
> > great bloodline might get 4. These are spent like skill points,
> > except only among the "blood skills" (or whatever you want to call them).
> >
> > Hence, at 1st level, the character gets all his blood abilities at
> > once by however that`s determined. (I`m inclined to suggest the
> > standard 2e method using the charts in the Book of Regency.) But,
> > those blood abilities aren`t especially useful until the character
> > levels up and starts allocating his blood ability points between his
> > various "blood skills".
>
> I like this. I really like this. I want to say something more useful at
> some point, but it will take me some time to work out exactly what.
>
> But right now, I want to say again -- I really like this approach.
>
>
> Ryan Caveney
>
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>

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