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  1. #21
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    > Gary`s BP system covers a lot of this without making a
    > skill check, which is what skills are for - not a static
    > system. That is excluding speak language which has no ranks.

    For the first two sentences in the above paragraph, I have no idea what
    you`re talking about. Sorry. Could you re-word it or expand on it or quote
    the parts you`re responding to or do something like that? I appreciate it,
    thanks.

    I think you`re trying to say that bloodline is a static system and does not
    lend itself well to using skills which vary over time, but that doesn`t make
    much sense because I gave some specific examples of how my proposed
    bloodline system wasn`t static. So I think I`m misunderstanding.

    I`m going to try summarizing using different terms, because I don`t know how
    else to respond and I think there`s some miscommunication going on here...

    First, Bloodline strength, bloodline score, and bloodline derivation are
    determined just as in 2e. There are no minor, major, or great abilities;
    all abilities are equal and all start at rank 0. Determine what blood
    abilities you have, either at random or by selecting some within your
    derivation until you reach your maximum.
    The maximum rank of any given blood ability is character level plus a value
    determined by bloodline strength, Tainted(+0),
    Minor(+1),Major(+2),Great(+4). At each time a character levels up, he gains
    bloodpoints (Tainted:1, Minor:2, Major:3, Great:5) which can be spent to
    acquire ranks in blood abilities. Using a blood ability requires a check
    using only the ranks in the blood ability as a modifier, so to travel would
    be a Travel Bloodpower check and at 1st level a scion with a minor bloodline
    could, at best, roll a 22 (spending 2 turns, "taking 20", with a +2 for
    having two ranks in Travel) but since this is a very powerful ability most
    of the DCs may be too high to use at this level. I use this specific
    example, because Travel is, in my opinion, one of the most potent blood
    abilities that would be unbalanced just to gift to 1st level characters. But
    this way, you could, by having it scale by level, so that at higher levels
    you could travel wherever you want but at lower levels you could only travel
    short distances to places your familiar (that have lower DCs) and even then,
    you`d have to spend two turns doing it by "taking 20".


    > Gary`s system allows scaling of the power level of blood
    > abilities by applying certain amount of BP. The amount of
    > BP generated is based on the scion`s blood score, which
    > is an independent number.

    Yes, I know. I like Gary`s system. If you remember, for the Scion of
    Vorynn class that I posted, I used Gary`s BP system and awarded bloodpoints
    everytime you leveled up in the class, in addition to variable class
    abilities that you could choose from to represent the special background
    options available to scions and the unique inclinations that the Vorynn
    bloodline lends it`s scions to.

    But it still uses ECL as the primary means to balance itself in terms of
    character level. Gary`s system scales, yes, but it scales with bloodline
    strength, not with character level which is the balance issue in question.
    Now granted, my above system doesn`t solve for that problem because a 3rd
    level scion is still better than a 3rd level commoner, but near as I can
    tell that`s what you guys want, because you don`t want to him to have less
    hit dice or levels or skill points, but still want him to have powers. At
    least this way, yeah, he gets powers, but he doesn`t get any game-breaking
    powers, and the usefulness of those powers scales with level so that higher
    level characters will still be able to use their bloodpowers effectively
    while 1st level characters won`t be able to Travel, Wither Touch, or
    Regenerate in the classic sense (but he might be able to do weaker versions
    of similiar effects). The DCs for the exact effects will likely to inspired
    from Gary`s system of scaled blood abilities.

    -Lord Rahvin

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  2. #22
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    Level-Dependant Bloodpowers

    Players may choose whether or not to play scions. The standard rules assume
    that there is no ECL modifiers for playing a scion, and that there is little
    reason not to play a scion. Optionally, DMs who want to perserve an ECL
    balance and reflect the 2e experience award to commoners may choose to
    enforce a +1 ECL at 1st level, and every 4 levels thereafter. Not paying
    this required level means you never acquire additional bloodpoints for
    leveling up.

    Optional rule: ECLs for Bloodpower growth
    ------------------------------------------
    +1 ECL Scions gain bloodpoints for levels 1-4
    +2 ECL* Scions gain bloodpoints for levels 5-8
    +3 ECL* Scions gain bloodpoints for levels 9-12
    +4 ECL* Scions gain bloodpoints for levels 13-16
    * When you would normally level up, you may instead take an ECL
    one level higher than you`ve previously selected.

    Determining Blood Abilities
    Bloodline strength and bloodline score are determined as per the Birthright
    rulebook. Bloodline derivation is determined as per Gary`s system, copied
    below:

    d8 Anuire Brecht Khinasi Rjurik Vos
    1 And. And. And. And. Azrai
    2 And. Reynir Basaïa Reynir And.
    3 Reynir Brenna Reynir Reynir Reynir
    4 Brenna Brenna Brenna Brenna Brenna
    5 Basaïa Basaïa Basaïa Basaïa Basaïa
    6 Masela Masela Masela Masela Masela
    7 Vorynn Vorynn Vorynn Vorynn Vorynn
    8 Azrai Azrai Azrai Azrai Azrai

    d8 Dwarf Elf/ Goblin Halfl. Other *
    1/2-elf
    1 And. And. And. And. Azrai
    2 And. Reynir Azrai Brenna Anduiras
    3 Reynir Reynir Reynir Reynir Reynir
    4 Brenna Brenna Brenna Brenna Brenna
    5 Basaïa Basaïa Basaïa Basaïa Basaïa
    6 Masela Masela Masela Masela Masela
    7 Vorynn Vorynn Vorynn Vorynn Vorynn
    8 Azrai Azrai Azrai Azrai Azrai


    Next, players must choose their blood abilities. Alternatively, this could
    be done randomly.

    Next, players must determine how many blood abilities they have. I
    recommend giving one blood ability per X points of bloodline strength, but
    here`s a quick alternative: Characters with Tainted bloodlines may choose 1
    power. All others roll randomly to determine how many blood abilities they
    have:
    Minor: 1d6, ignoring and re-rolling results of 3-6.
    Major: 1d6, ignoring and re-rolling results of 4-6.
    Great: 1d6, ignoring and re-rolling results of 6.

    Players may choose not to take one less blood ability to gain a +1 bonus to
    using one of their existing blood abilities. This option may be taken more
    than once. These bonuses stack.

    Once the number of blood abilities is determined, each blood ability must be
    chosen from a list based on blood derivation:

    Anduiras: Animal Affinity, Battlewise, Courage, Detect Lie, Detect Life,
    Divine Aura, Divine Wrath, Elemental Control, Enhanced Sense, Healing, Iron
    Will, Long Life, Protective Aura, Regenerate, Resistance, Unreadable
    Thoughts.

    Azrai: Animal Affinity, Battlewise, Detect Lie, Detect Illusion, Detect
    Life, Divine Aura, Fear, Invulnerability, Iron Will, Long Life, Persuasion,
    Poison Sense, Poison Touch, Protective Aura, Regenerate, Resistance, Shadow
    Form, Touch of Decay, Travel, Unreadable Thoughts, Wither Touch.

    Masela: Animal Affinity, Blood History, Detect Lie, Detect Illusion, Detect
    Life, Direction Sense, Divine Aura, Divine Wrath, Elemental Control,
    Enhanced Sense, Long Life, Protective Aura, Resistance, Travel, Unreadable
    Thoughts.

    Vorynn: Animal Affinity, Blood History, Detect Lie, Detect Illusion, Detect
    Life, Divine Aura, Enhanced Sense, Invulnerability, Long Life, Protective
    Aura, Resistance, Travel, Unreadable Thoughts.

    Reynir: Animal Affinity, Detect Lie, Detect Illusion, Detect Life, Direction
    Sense, Divine Aura, Elemental Control, Enhanced Sense, Healing, Iron Will,
    Long Life, Poison Sense, Protective Aura, Regenerate, Resistance, Unreadable
    Thoughts.

    Brenna: Animal Affinity, Blood History, Detect Lie, Detect Illusion, Detect
    Life, Enhanced Sense, Long Life, Persuasion, Protective Aura, Resistance,
    Shadow Form, Travel, Unreadable Thoughts.

    Basaiia: Animal Affinity, Detect Lie, Detect Illusion, Detect Life, Divine
    Aura, Divine Wrath, Elemental Control, Enhanced Sense, Healing,
    Invulnerability, Long Life, Protective Aura, Resistance, Travel, Unreadable
    Thoughts.


    To use a blood ability, a character must make a bloodpower check. Unless
    otherwise stated, this is considered an attack(partial) action. The player
    adds his ranks in the blood ability to the results of a d20 roll and
    compares them to the DC of the effect he`s trying to achieve. Some sample
    blood abilities: (descriptions and effects inspired from Gary`s Blood
    Ability Point System)


    Blood History [Masala, Vorynn, Brenna]
    Your bloodline gives you a sort of living memory that allows you to connect
    to the minds of your ancestors in order to draw upon their knowledge and
    life experiences.
    The memories you can access are up until the time of your birth and the
    birth of your ancestors. That is, you have the memories of your parent (the
    one with the appropriate bloodline and derivation) up until you were born.
    A sibling born two years later would have two years more of memories.
    Check: You may use this bloodpower to see whether or not you can remember
    some important memory of your ancestors such as information about historic
    events, legendary items, or noteworthy places. This check will not reveal
    the powers of a magical item, but may give some hint to its function. Each
    time the character attempts such a check, he recieves a -1 penalty to all
    future Blood History checks that day until he gets a good night`s rest.
    DC 12 Recent memories or common knowledge.
    DC 15 Older, uncommon knowledge, within the last 100 yrs.
    DC 20 Rare knowledge, personal impressions, up to 1000 yrs.
    DC 25 Obscure, non-recorded information since Deismaar.
    DC 30 Information purposefully kept hidden since Deismaar.


    Enhanced Sense (hawkeye) [Basaiia]
    You have the eyes of a hawk.
    DC 12 You gain low-light vision for one round.
    DC 15 +1 bonus to your next ranged attack roll
    DC 20 +2 bonus to your next ranged attack roll
    DC 20 You gain low-light vision for one full turn.
    DC 25 +3 bonus to your next ranged attack roll

    Enhanced Sense (precognition) [Vorynn]
    You gain a limited form of precognition. Each time you use this ability,
    you recieve a -1 penalty to all future bloodpower checks to use this blood
    ability.
    DC 12 If someone suprises you, you may react by attempting to manifest
    this bloodpower. If successful, you are not flat-footed.
    DC 15 You may re-roll a single attack roll, saving throw, or skill
    check. The second roll must be taken.
    DC 15 You get the equivalent of Augury (PHB 177)
    DC 30 You gain the equialent of Divination.

    Persuasion [Azrai, Brenna]
    This ability gives you a silver tongue.
    DC 12 You recieve a +2 bonus to your next Diplomacy check.
    DC 15 You may create a bonding with someone. Only one person may be
    bonded in this manner per day.
    DC 15 You may use suggestion on the bonded person. Doing so destroys
    the bond.
    DC 18 You may gain the effect of a charm person on someone you`ve been
    bonded to.
    DC 20 You may create a bond with a monster. Only one bond may be
    created per day.


    Resistance (light) [Besaiia]
    You are resistant to a spells and spell-like effects of light and fire
    targeted against you. You must manifest this ability before the spell is
    cast on you.
    You may enchant yourself with a protective aura, granting you temporary
    Spell Resistance. The value of the Spell Resistance determines the DC of
    the bloodpower check. Manifesting the bloodpower is an attack(partial)
    action, but no action is required to maintain it. Manifesting the
    bloodpower requires a DC equal to the SR -5. Maintaining the SR requires a
    bloodpower check every round at the same DC, +2 DC for every round that
    passes.


    Regenerate [Anduiras, Azrai, Reynir]
    You can regenerate wounds quickly. If you`ve lost hitpoints, you may
    manifest this power to regain lost hitpoints. The number of hitpoints
    restored can never exceed your normal hitpoint total. Each time you use
    this ability, you recieve a -1 penalty to all future attempts to manifest
    this ability for the rest of the day.
    DC 15 Minor Regeneration: Restore 1d4 hitpoints. This can not be
    used if your current hitpoint total is below 0.
    DC 15 Recovery: You are no longer Dazed, Stunned, or Unconscious. A
    failed bloodpower check when attempting to use this ability can not be
    attempted again.
    DC 15 Stablization: If you`re a dying character at negative
    hitpoints, you can attempt a bloodpower check (DC 15) to stabalize. A
    failed attempt can not be attempted again.
    DC 20 Awaken: If you`re at negative hitpoints, but stable, then a
    successful bloodpower check will increase your total hitpoint total up to 0.
    The base time for this is 1 hour.
    DC 30 Advanced Regeneration: You can regain significant amounts of
    hitpoints or even reattach lost limbs. The base time for this is 1 hour,
    rather than one attack(partial) action. On a successful bloodpower check,
    you regain you`re full total hitpoints.


    Shadow Form (Azrai, Brenna)
    With this ability you are able to manipulate shadows, even taking on the
    characteristics of shadows yourself. Each time you use manifest this blood
    ability or spend one round maintaining this blood ability, the DC for all
    future attempts to manifest or maintain this blood ability is increased by
    one round.
    DC 12 Darkvision for one round.
    DC 12 You gain a +2 bonus to Hide checks for one round.
    DC 15 You may use your Hide check without needing a hiding place,
    allowing you to hide in plain sight. (You roll the bloodpower check after
    the opposed Hide/Spot rolls.) Using this bloodpower is a free action.
    DC 20 You may become incorpreal, as a shadow. This must be maintained
    each round, but maintaining this power does not require an attack(partial)
    action.

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  3. #23
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Lord Rahvin

    Yes, I know. I like Gary`s system. If you remember, for the Scion of
    Vorynn class that I posted, I used Gary`s BP system and awarded bloodpoints
    everytime you leveled up in the class, in addition to variable class
    abilities that you could choose from to represent the special background
    options available to scions and the unique inclinations that the Vorynn
    bloodline lends it`s scions to.

    But it still uses ECL as the primary means to balance itself in terms of
    character level. Gary`s system scales, yes, but it scales with bloodline
    strength, not with character level which is the balance issue in question.
    Now granted, my above system doesn`t solve for that problem because a 3rd
    level scion is still better than a 3rd level commoner, but near as I can
    tell that`s what you guys want, because you don`t want to him to have less
    hit dice or levels or skill points, but still want him to have powers. At
    least this way, yeah, he gets powers, but he doesn`t get any game-breaking
    powers, and the usefulness of those powers scales with level so that higher
    level characters will still be able to use their bloodpowers effectively
    while 1st level characters won`t be able to Travel, Wither Touch, or
    Regenerate in the classic sense (but he might be able to do weaker versions
    of similiar effects). The DCs for the exact effects will likely to inspired
    from Gary`s system of scaled blood abilities.

    -Lord Rahvin
    Actually most favor an ECL type system. There was a poll on Chapter 2 (of the playtest document) info and the one that had nearly twice as many in favor as opposed was using ECLs. This was not to be interpreted as using the proposed ECL system, but some sort of ECL system.:)
    Duane Eggert

  4. #24
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Lord Rahvin

    > Gary`s BP system covers a lot of this without making a
    > skill check, which is what skills are for - not a static
    > system. That is excluding speak language which has no ranks.

    For the first two sentences in the above paragraph, I have no idea what
    you`re talking about. Sorry. Could you re-word it or expand on it or quote
    the parts you`re responding to or do something like that? I appreciate it,
    thanks.

    I think you`re trying to say that bloodline is a static system and does not
    lend itself well to using skills which vary over time, but that doesn`t make
    much sense because I gave some specific examples of how my proposed
    bloodline system wasn`t static. So I think I`m misunderstanding.
    -Lord Rahvin

    What I was refering to was the very act of having to make skill checks. I was trying to point out that Gary's system allows scaling based on a BP assignment that makes abilities better or broader in use. Again, something you've mostly embraced but have tied it up with skill check.

    To use a blood ability, a character must make a bloodpower check. Unless
    otherwise stated, this is considered an attack(partial) action. The player
    adds his ranks in the blood ability to the results of a d20 roll and
    compares them to the DC of the effect he`s trying to achieve. Some sample
    blood abilities: (descriptions and effects inspired from Gary`s Blood
    Ability Point System)

    -Lord Rahvin
    This is the thing that causes problems with a workable system, at least for me. Mostly blood abilities are spell-like abilities. I haven't seen any publication that requires a skill check to activate a spell-like ability. This system will also require many more dice-rolls and as for what I've seen people complain about a lot is the amount of dice rolls being made, so adding more would tend to make this situation worse. How would a skill check work to activate an ability such as Alertness, which gives a bonus to other skill checks? How much time would this entail, since each skill check is normally a standard action?:)
    Duane Eggert

  5. #25
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    > What I was refering to was the very act of having to make
    > skill checks. I was trying to point out that Gary`s
    > system allows scaling based on a BP assignment that makes
    > abilities better or broader in use. Again, something
    > you`ve mostly embraced but have tied it up with skill check.

    Well, yes. But again, that scaling is not based on character level, it`s
    based on bloodline strength. While that`s cool, it doesn`t address the
    specific concerns of this system:
    * Scions should start at 1st level
    * Scions should not have to level up in a different class
    * Scions should get all their blood abilities from the beginning
    * Low level scions should not have access to unbalanced abilities that
    may ruin adventures
    * High level scions should still be able to use their blood abilities
    effectively.

    So yes, scaling is good. Balance is good. But that`s not the whole of it.
    Scaling doesn`t just mean blood abilities should scale, but in this case
    that the scaling should solve a specific problem (point 4, above). The
    balance I`m trying to achieve isn`t a balance between scions and non-scions,
    it`s between the abilities of a scion and the challenge of a typical
    adventure.


    > This is the thing that causes problems with a workable system,
    > at least for me. Mostly blood abilities are spell-like abilities.

    None of the ones I`ve written up have been spell-like abilities, except
    maybe Persuasion and even that was done a bit differently. Since I`m also
    rewriitng the magic system, I was trying to avoid outright spell-like
    abilities.

    But even if the blood abilities are spell-like, what`s wrong with that?

    > I haven`t seen any publication that requires a skill check
    > to activate a spell-like ability.

    Not to sound like ecliptic here but, so what? It doesn`t take a lot of
    effort to imagine how this works. You roll a skill check, spell-like
    ability happens. There`ll be a little more to it than that, of course. I
    know it might be revolutionary and heretic to do something that`s not been
    published, but I`m sure together we could make it work.


    > This system will also require many more dice-rolls and as for
    > what I`ve seen people complain about a lot is the amount of
    > dice rolls being made, so adding more would tend to make this
    > situation worse.

    I find this one really hard to believe. Who objects to dice rolls being
    used? I don`t know of many players who don`t like rolling dice during play.
    Is this another result of your polls? :)


    > How would a skill check work to activate an ability such
    > as Alertness, which gives a bonus to other skill checks?
    > How much time would this entail, since each skill check
    > is normally a standard action?:)

    (Are you really saying that a bloodline system based around the skill system
    wouldn`t be able to interact well with skills?!)

    Well, I was hoping the BR community would have some suggestions, here, based
    on what they`d like to see included in the system. I don`t understand why
    you`re resisting the idea instead of offering suggestions to improve on it.
    Here`s some thoughts on how to work Alertness, just off the top of my head:
    Since ranks in blood abilities are lower than ranks in skills (generally), I
    don`t know if I have any problem in saying your Alertness ranks provide +1
    modifiers to Spot and Listen checks, or maybe 2 ranks per +1. It`s the
    power of the gods here, so I`m inclined to even say 1 rank per +2. But I
    don`t particularly like that solution. I had several examples where at DC
    12 you would gain a +2 bonus to a skill, effectively meaning that once you
    had 2 ranks in the blood ability, you could "take 10" and always
    automatically recieve that bonus. Alternatively, as a reaction, Alertness
    could grant you Uncanny Dodge or a similiar effect on a successful check,
    say DC 15. It might even overlap a little with some of the effects from
    Enhanced Sense(precognition) or Detect Life blood abilities.

    While I was writing up the blood abilities by the way, I decided that all
    blood abilities should be free actions unless otherwise stated. Also,
    unless otherwise stated, using a blood ability for any effect incurs a -1
    penalty to all future attempts to use that blood ability that day. (I was
    thinking of even including a bloodpower Rejuvination or something that would
    allow you to remove one of these -1 modifiers per rank in the Rejuvination
    ability per day. [Only characters with Major or Great Bloodlines would have
    enough blood abilities to take advantage of this.] Now in addition to
    adding dice rolls, I`m adding to the bookkeeping involved, but this isn`t
    hard: just put a little dot or slash mark on your character sheet after
    using each ability.

    ---

    I`d rather you just come out and say you don`t like the system rather than
    give nonsense rhetoric as to why it couldn`t work.
    - It would interact with Skills? Sure it could.
    - It wouldn`t work with spell-like abilities? It could.
    (Persuasion is an example of both of these used.)
    (Note that the additional rules above [-1 per use] are
    needed to handle spell-like abilities.)
    - We already have systems that scale? That`s not really an argument
    against this system. And I gave specific arguments for why this system is
    built this way and the specific problems it`s trying to solve. (At least I
    think I did; if this is still unclear, let me know.)
    - It requires more dice rolls? I hope this is really a major issue
    with you, otherwise it just gets me kind of upset because it sounds like
    you`re really scraping the bottom of the barrel trying to look for reasons
    to shut me up. Yes, if this is really a major issue with you, I`ll grant
    you this one. Yeah, it uses more die rolls. That was one of the primary
    intents when I sat down to write it.



    Just so we`re all clear though, I do want to point out that my system does
    have three major disadvantages: (not including that it needs dice)
    * One, I need the help of the Birthright community to writeup the
    specific blood ability entries. My intent here is to provide an argument
    for a system that has more (or better) pros and fewer (or acceptable) cons.
    I`m not actually providing the system itself, yet.
    * Two, even though it attempts to balance scions with adventures, it
    doesn`t balance scions with non-scions. I felt that balance concerns should
    be handled as an optional rule. Low-level characters or more or less
    balance, but the higher level you go, the more imbalanced things get.
    * Three, it adds bookkeeping with the "-1" rule and the different DCs.
    However, anyone who can handle the complexities of the D&D magic system
    could easily handle the bookkeeping involved in this.


    I`ll continue the trend of pro/con analysis, trying to use some of the
    entries already used for consistency.

    Blood abilities using skill mechanics
    (Anyone got a good name for this system? "Bloodskill" doesn`t sound right.)

    pro - BR rulebook used to determine strength and score
    pro - All blood abilities given at 1st level, based on score (as in BR
    rulebook). Accounts for inborn abilities.
    pro - Recreate the 2E system balanced for 3E
    pro - Allows campaigns to begin at 1st level.
    pro - effectiveness of blood abilities linked to bloodline strength and
    character level.
    pro - Limits Higher Blood Power levels to higher game-play levels.
    pro - inherent (DC) system for players who use blood abilities in creative
    ways
    pro - has an intuitive system for bloodtheft

    con - ECLs, if used, have to be scaled with level. (See my optional rule)
    con - Can`t have superpower effects at 1st level. (But you could have
    lesser versions of those effects...)


    I included the pro, "has an intuitive system for bloodtheft" because I
    beleive that only the templates and classes have the problem of a system
    that doesn`t lend itself to bloodtheft. Anything that`s point-based, as
    this system and as Gary`s system as, should be able to handle things like
    investiture and bloodtheft pretty well.

    -Lord Rahvin

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  6. #26
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    > This is the thing that causes problems with a workable system,
    > at least for me. Mostly blood abilities are spell-like abilities.
    > I haven`t seen any publication that requires a skill check to
    > activate a spell-like ability.

    Concentration checks are in the core rulebook, and force you to make a skill
    check to cast an actual spell once certain conditions are met. This isn`t
    much of a new concept.

    > This system will also require many more dice-rolls and as for
    > what I`ve seen people complain about a lot is the amount of
    > dice rolls being made, so adding more would tend to make this
    > situation worse.

    If you like, I`m assuming you could always take 10 or take 20 and gave
    several examples of that in my introduction to the system. Once you could
    "take 10" to achieve a certain DC, that power is considered fairly
    "Automatic". Taking 20 was also used to allow low level characters to use
    great effects outside of combat and critical situations.


    > How would a skill check work to activate an ability such
    > as Alertness, which gives a bonus to other skill checks? How
    > much time would this entail, since each skill check is
    > normally a standard action?:)

    Since you require published sources for some reason, one of my players found
    one for you. Star Wars is a d20 product that has an Enhanced Senses force
    skill. To use this ability, you make a check based on that force skill to
    achieve a certain DC, and, if successful, you gain a bonus to Spot, Listen,
    and Search based on well you rolled.

    -Lord Rahvin

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  7. #27
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    Lord Rahvin wrote:

    >> What I was refering to was the very act of having to make
    >> skill checks. I was trying to point out that Gary`s
    >> system allows scaling based on a BP assignment that makes
    >> abilities better or broader in use. Again, something
    >> you`ve mostly embraced but have tied it up with skill check.
    >
    > Well, yes. But again, that scaling is not based on character level, it`s
    > based on bloodline strength. While that`s cool, it doesn`t address the
    > specific concerns of this system:
    > * Scions should start at 1st level

    Not rather: Scions should be able to start at 1st level?
    Many people simply take over the existing regents who are not 1st level.
    Some start as unblooded and somehow (bloodtheft, investiture) earn a
    bloodline later.
    So a character could become a scion at any point in his life, from his
    birth before his 1st level up to his death.

    > * Scions should not have to level up in a different class
    > * Scions should get all their blood abilities from the beginning
    > * Low level scions should not have access to unbalanced abilities
    > that
    > may ruin adventures

    Isn´t that a matter of adventure design? The DM knows the powers of the
    players before the adventure even starts, and both some great
    bloodability as well as some major magical item can spoil something that
    was planned otherwise - does that mean that you say that magical items
    should only be created and stored in chests to be found for players,
    after those players have reached the level at which the magical items
    may not have any effect on the adventure? ;-)
    bye
    Michael Romes

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  8. #28
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    The complaint about more die rolls seems to me more about non-intuitive die
    rolls than it is frequent recourse to numbered polyhedrons. When a DM has
    to consult a chart, or even worse, look up a table, the game is measurably
    slowed. When two characters make competing skill checks, its easily
    resolved without much consultation of anything (maybe a character record)
    and the result is obvious. So, I would say its tables and charts that are
    the problem, not the dice themselves.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  9. #29
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 01:02 PM 4/19/2003 -0600, Lord Rahvin wrote:

    >So yes, scaling is good. Balance is good. But that`s not the whole of
    >it. Scaling doesn`t just mean blood abilities should scale, but in this
    >case that the scaling should solve a specific problem (point 4,
    >above). The balance I`m trying to achieve isn`t a balance between scions
    >and non-scions, it`s between the abilities of a scion and the challenge of
    >a typical adventure.

    That`s a rather artificial distinction that doesn`t really have any
    effective value unless it`s going to accompany a lot of additional
    material. Since non-scions have the same challenge system as scions in a
    typical adventure differentiating between scions and non-scions for the
    purpose of a system of effects while ignoring the way the same information
    is rated for non-scions doesn`t make sense because the same methods are
    used to make up adventures for both, so unless you`re coming up with a
    second system to balance adventures to accommodate the changes to
    determining the balance of scions that will also work with commoners (since
    they are often mixed in the same adventure) then there`s little point in
    coming up with a new way of scaling scions alone while ignoring how that
    influences the scaling of non-scions.

    >>This is the thing that causes problems with a workable system,
    >>at least for me. Mostly blood abilities are spell-like abilities.
    >
    >None of the ones I`ve written up have been spell-like abilities, except
    >maybe Persuasion and even that was done a bit differently. Since I`m also
    >rewriitng the magic system, I was trying to avoid outright spell-like
    >abilities.
    >
    >But even if the blood abilities are spell-like, what`s wrong with that?

    Does this system of bloodline accompany that rewritten magic
    system? Honestly, I`m having trouble following your thinking on this, and
    I suspect it`s because there is a whole system--at least
    conceptually--behind it. That is, making blood abilities a spell-like
    ability makes no difference to 3e/d20, so why is avoiding spell-like
    abilities something you`ve avoided?

    To address the concern re: skill checks required to activate spell-like
    abilities, the issue is I think that a skill check to activate a spell-like
    ability could be just as easily seen as a skill check to activate a
    spell. The distinction is, in fact, pretty vague. Since special (usually
    dramatic and damaging) conditions provoke a Concentration check to cast
    spells making that the default for all spell-like abilities is a
    substantial drop in utility. Where the standard concept of a "spell-like"
    ability is that it functions more or less as an innate ability, making a
    check is an entirely different thing.

    >>I haven`t seen any publication that requires a skill check
    >>to activate a spell-like ability.
    >
    >Not to sound like ecliptic here but, so what? It doesn`t take a lot of
    >effort to imagine how this works. You roll a skill check, spell-like
    >ability happens. There`ll be a little more to it than that, of course. I
    >know it might be revolutionary and heretic to do something that`s not been
    >published, but I`m sure together we could make it work.

    It does take a little bit of imagine to come up with a reason that it`s
    necessary, though.... From what I can tell the merit of using skills as
    blood abilities is that the concept could then be extended so that the
    blood abilities could apply to a whole range of activities, not just those
    ascribed to the descriptions. While I like the general thinking there, I
    have a couple of suspicions about how that would actually play out.

    First, I`d be concerned that any blood ability would turn into a sort of
    acme skill, applicable to all checks based on the rationale of the player
    being allowed by the DM. A character with the Heightened Ability blood
    ability could come up with all kinds of justifications for why his ability
    should apply to just about any situation, so he should get those bonuses on
    all kinds of checks, opening the door to all kinds of funky and possibly
    ridiculous rationalizations. The BP system I wrote up was largely based on
    some of the ideas expressed in d20 superhero games, but I made some
    specific effort to differentiate bloodline using similar mechanics from the
    way powers get used in superhero RPGs to deal with any and all
    situations. In its most basic level, I suspect that`s the direction your
    system is going.

    Second, it`s somewhat conceptually obverse. That is, skills and feats
    represent learned abilities for the most part. Bloodlines are innate and
    divine. I think the stuff suggested by several people that characters
    should have to learn to use their blood abilities is interesting, I don`t
    know that using skills and feats would necessarily be the way to go in
    order to accomplish that particular goal, nor do I think it would be
    particularly apt for a system of bloodline even if learning as one goes was
    the goal. Making bloodline a character class would work much the same way
    and is, in effect, what bloodline as skills and feats does except that it
    omits HD, BAB, and saving throw progressions. Instead, it replaces class
    abilities and skill points with blood abilities. That`s all well and good,
    but it doesn`t balance particularly well when divorced from levels and
    ECLs, so I don`t think it very accurately fits into a d20 rules set or even
    works very well as a balanced stand alone system.

    >>This system will also require many more dice-rolls and as for
    >>what I`ve seen people complain about a lot is the amount of
    >>dice rolls being made, so adding more would tend to make this
    >>situation worse.
    >
    >I find this one really hard to believe. Who objects to dice rolls being
    >used? I don`t know of many players who don`t like rolling dice during play.
    >Is this another result of your polls? :)

    No one objects to die rolls. The objection is to superfluous die rolls.

    >Well, I was hoping the BR community would have some suggestions, here, based
    >on what they`d like to see included in the system. I don`t understand why
    >you`re resisting the idea instead of offering suggestions to improve on it.

    We`re just trying to get some clarification here. You should expect some
    questions since the system seems to be only partially fleshed out. In
    fact, those questions constitute the suggestions you`re looking for since
    they are, in effect, telling you what issues need to be addressed or
    clarified in your system. If you`re looking for someone to write it up for
    you, though... well, you`ll probably be out of luck.

    > - It requires more dice rolls? I hope this is really a major issue
    >with you, otherwise it just gets me kind of upset because it sounds like
    >you`re really scraping the bottom of the barrel trying to look for reasons
    >to shut me up. Yes, if this is really a major issue with you, I`ll grant
    >you this one. Yeah, it uses more die rolls. That was one of the primary
    >intents when I sat down to write it.

    This argument really is not what you`ve made it out to be, so your getting
    upset about it is more a product of your own invention rather than anything
    coming from the point being raised. The number of die rolls needed to
    perform a specific action during play is a legitimate concern since having
    to roll a check or two before making a check extends the amount of time
    that is not dedicated to actual play. One could, for instance, have a
    system of combat that had a die roll to successfully operate the weapon
    being employed, another to hit a target, a third to determine that target`s
    defensive capacity, a fourth the bypass any armor or other equipment, a
    fifth to determine the location struck, etc. Such things bog down play
    considerably.

    In this case, questioning the need for a check to determine the bonus to a
    check is a legitimate concern for a couple of reasons. First of all,
    because it does differ a bit from most d20 standards. Most often d20
    handles this kind of thing with a simple, automatic bonus. There`s not a
    lot of precedence for this kind of check (even aid checks are really
    different from the kind of thing you`re suggesting) but it`s highly
    arguable whether a bonus from blood abilities qualify as something that
    would require that kind of game mechanic when there is a much simpler and
    easier method of dealing with such a thing with a bonus alone. I`d suggest
    that unless the bonus gained from a blood ability check is going to be so
    substantial as to shift things into a sort of "epic level" of play then it
    probably would be just as efficient game mechanically to go with a straight
    bonus to a check.

    Gary

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  10. #30
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Thanks Gary,
    You pretty much summed up my concerns without coming across as arrogant and overly negative. I appologize if that's how I came off. I was just trying to voice my concerns/questions and I guess they came off as attacks rather than real questions.

    Concentration is a skill check made to ensure that the act of casting a spell can continue. Not to see if one can cast the spell. The conditions that require a concentration check are basically taking damage at the time of casting a spell (or being counter spelled) but the act (damage received, etc.) occurs at the time the spell is being cast. So it is not really a check to cast but a check to see if the caster's concentration can be maintained on the task at hand.

    Taking 10 in combat is pretty much not going to happen. Taking 10 means taking 10 times the normal amount of time required to do something. A skill normally takes a standard action to use and hence it would take 10 rounds to take 10, taking 20 is listed as taking 2 minutes for a standard action skill. The mechanic needs to be tweaked somehow if this was to be a "norm".

    The Star Wars skills in question require a check and then the result determines the "bonus" that applies to the next action. The check is a standard action and the affected action almost always takes place the next round. So for the example given (Alertness) it is not an entirely unreasonable comparison. The issue arrises when Spot checks are done to determine surprise or other reflexive issues. This was pointed out, legitamately, as a flaw in the playtest version of making all blood abilities spell-like that require a standard action to implement. Alertness is one of th few blood ablilites that doesn't translate very well into a spell-like ability. In the playtest document we need to give it some more "punch", the other abilities were beefed up so that they were more powerful than the standard abilities, Alertness wasn't (my bad).:)
    Duane Eggert

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