Results 1 to 10 of 21
Thread: My ECL playtest results
-
04-11-2003, 04:31 PM #1
- Join Date
- Nov 2001
- Location
- Germany near Frankfurt
- Posts
- 295
- Downloads
- 0
- Uploads
- 0
So far I was neutral towards the ECL modifications of blooded scions. Now I started several new Birthright campaigns, experienced the character creation system and
felt the resonance of the players.
Furthermore I discussed with people which also use the ECL system. Here is my personal
result:
The ECL modification does not seem to work for "normal" adventuring campaigns. However, it seems to make sense when getting involved with regency points.
- the ECL for scions is in absolutely no relation to the ECL of races
- the ECL modifier is unfair: player choosing a better bloodline may have bad luck and
have a low bloodline score or bad blood abilities
- the differences of the bloodline abilities of a minor bloodline are not weak enough compared the the major abilites. Characters with the minor ability can have nearly as good abilities as a character with a major ability.
The result is that players with e.g. a major bloodline are very frustrated, since they have to live with the ECL.
For groups not using the Regency rules (or don't use them that often), the ECL system
does not work.my purpose is now to lead you into the Pallace where you shall have a clear and delightful view of all those various objects, and scattered excellencies, that lye up and down upon the face of creation, which are only seen by those that go down into the Seas, and by no other....
-
04-11-2003, 05:22 PM #2
At 06:31 PM 4/11/2003 +0200, Azrai wrote:
>For groups not using the Regency rules (or don`t use them that often),
>the ECL system
>does not work.
If I might engage in a little shameless self-promotion, have you tried the
ECL stuff in the Blood Ability Points System? I think it may address some
of your complaints since there is an effort to balance the ECL modifiers
with the adventure level effects. On the other hand, the tenth values for
ECL may not work out well in the long run--though I haven`t really heard
any complaints so far, and the ECL modifiers don`t really reflect the
ability of the regent to control a large realm. (I think the ECL for a
realm should be computed separately, but that`s really another issue.)
Gary
************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.
-
04-12-2003, 01:27 PM #3
- Join Date
- Nov 2001
- Location
- Virginia Beach, Virginia
- Posts
- 3,945
- Downloads
- 0
- Uploads
- 0
Azrai has several valid points:
The ECL system is weakest when using a random method of determining blood abilities.
The ECL was based on 3 factors (I've consistenetly stated this) - Blood abilities, bonus hit points and starting equipment (i.e., magic items). The latter is really only useful at low levels and the variant in Chapter 8 needs to be adopted to really use it. If a group is not using any of the regency options, it indeed won't work very well - since none of them by themselves, except some major and great blood abiities, would justify an ECL in and of itself.
Something we "missed" when putting together the system was that the DMG doesn't allow starting with ECLs alone. pg 22 "Only let a player create one of these powerful characters when you would otherwise allow that player to create a higher-level standard character of equivalanet pwer. Thus, if you would normally allow a player to create a 5th-level character, you can also allow a player to create an ogre (with no class levels)."
When Savage Species (3.5 forward compatable) came out it outlined a method for using monster levels to allow a character to play an ECL'd race at first level. While I absolutely hate having to resort to using a scion class, I can't see any other way to incorporate this into the 3rd ed mechanics. I worked up a 5 level scion class that gives hit points, BAB, saving throws, skillpoints, etc. like any other class would it also inserts the various things that comprise the templates at different levels and allows the scion class to be an additional favored class for scions. The scion class levels are not required, but a scion would need to take them in order to gain additional benefits (e.g., access to major abilities). Since the "minor" template had no ECL, a scion could take it without any additional scion class levels and only have access to minor abilities. I'll post it once I figure out how to best get it out for discussion. :)Duane Eggert
-
04-13-2003, 04:38 PM #4
How does this mesh with the backround of the birthright campeign, If charecters have to earn those abilities fair and square and with them being balanced out as class levels and history saying they had advantages over others when they could just as well have leveled up in other classes, true it gives mystical advantages over others but then you could just as well level up as a divine or arcane spellcaster. Seems to me that your trying to make an omelette(d20 birthright) without the breaking a few eggs. You could simply keep the AD&D rules on it or create your own that may or may not break a few rules
-
04-13-2003, 08:45 PM #5
It seems to me that the problem with ECL effects on scions really revolves
around the fact that a set of powers granted by heaven to rulers actually
creates adventure benefits. Some of the powers really are only advantages
for rulers (Battlewise) while others are clear advantages for adventurers.
The ECL should only balance the advantages of adventure level play, not
realm level play.
Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com
************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.
-
04-13-2003, 08:45 PM #6
At 02:10 PM 4/13/2003 -0500, Kenneth Gauck wrote:
>Some of the powers really are only advantages for rulers (Battlewise)
>while others are clear advantages for adventurers. The ECL should only
>balance the advantages of adventure level play, not realm level play.
Other than Battlewise which blood abilities in particular do you think are
the most egregious in this regard? That is, which blood abilities tend to
be mostly "domain level abilities" with little or no adventure level effect?
Gary
************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.
-
04-13-2003, 10:23 PM #7
- Join Date
- Nov 2001
- Location
- Gothenburg, Sweden
- Posts
- 949
- Downloads
- 0
- Uploads
- 0
It seems to me that the problem with ECL effects on scions really revolves
around the fact that a set of powers granted by heaven to rulers actually
creates adventure benefits. Some of the powers really are only advantages
for rulers (Battlewise) while others are clear advantages for adventurers.
The ECL should only balance the advantages of adventure level play, not
realm level play.
How does this mesh with the backround of the birthright campeign, If charecters have to earn those abilities fair and square and with them being balanced out as class levels and history saying they had advantages over others when they could just as well have leveled up in other classes, true it gives mystical advantages over others but then you could just as well level up as a divine or arcane spellcaster. Seems to me that your trying to make an omelette(d20 birthright) without the breaking a few eggs. You could simply keep the AD&D rules on it or create your own that may or may not break a few rules
- the ECL for scions is in absolutely no relation to the ECL of races
- the ECL modifier is unfair: player choosing a better bloodline may have bad luck and
have a low bloodline score or bad blood abilities
- the differences of the bloodline abilities of a minor bloodline are not weak enough compared the the major abilites. Characters with the minor ability can have nearly as good abilities as a character with a major ability.
The result is that players with e.g. a major bloodline are very frustrated, since they have to live with the ECL.Jan E. Juvstad.
-
04-14-2003, 08:11 AM #8
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>
Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2003 3:01 PM
> Other than Battlewise which blood abilities in particular do you think are
> the most egregious in this regard?
Isn`t this deficency telling? Some have use in both domain and adventure
areas, but should blood abilities be mostly inheritors of the adventure
focus, or should the domain aspect be expanded to reflect BR as a domain
system?
BTW, I don`t think ECL should reflect domain advantages. Being prince of
Avanil shouldn`t produce an experience penalty as compared to the count of
Ilien or Hugo the snake, petty fence in the local burg.
Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com
************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.
-
04-14-2003, 08:11 AM #9
- Join Date
- Sep 2002
- Location
- Alabama, US
- Posts
- 40
- Downloads
- 0
- Uploads
- 0
Ok I finally sat down and started reading over some of the other templates
from WotC. Has anyone else noticed that the Half-Celestial template in the
back of the MM is only +1 ECL. Look at all of the abilities and powers
granted. Hell look at most of those templates. For a mere +1 ECL you get
ALOT of bonus`s and goodies.
The Great Template does not hold up. You gain a +3 ECL and do not gain near
as many benefits. Was there any reason for this? What was the major
points that the development team decided upon a +3 ECL for the Great
bloodline template?
-Anakin Miller
-------------------------
"What was sundered, shall be remade.
What was stolen, shall be avenged. "
- Engraved on the Crown of Diemed
************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.Who are you to speak to me of loneliness, you who have not suffered as I have suffered. My father was lord of the Andu, ruler of a million souls, but not once did he ever claim me as his son. All those years I waited for a single word from him, a simple acknowledgment of my birthright. But, not even on his death bed did he claim me as his. So do not speak to me of your loneliness, you who have never been as alone as I have been all my life.
- Prince Raesene Andu, -2 HC.
-
04-14-2003, 08:59 AM #10
At 02:18 AM 4/14/2003 -0500, Kenneth Gauck wrote:
>> >Some of the powers really are only advantages for rulers (Battlewise)
>> >while others are clear advantages for adventurers. The ECL should only
>> >balance the advantages of adventure level play, not realm level play.
>
> > Other than Battlewise which blood abilities in particular do you think are
> > the most egregious in this regard?
>
>Isn`t this deficency telling?
I asked because other than Battlewise I couldn`t think of any blood
abilities that really have a domain level effect. I just skimmed through
the RB and Courage does also have an effect on units accompanying the scion
in addition to its adventure level effects. Those are the only two I recall.
>Some have use in both domain and adventure areas, but should blood
>abilities be mostly inheritors of the adventure focus, or should the
>domain aspect be expanded to reflect BR as a domain system?
I think certain blood abilities _should_ have both adventure level and
domain level effects (maybe they all should for the sake of balance and
thoroughness--though what the domain level effects of Direction Sense might
be escapes me at the moment...) but by and large the adventure level
effects seem to be the standard. Since ECL really accounts only for
adventure level effects I don`t think there`d need to be much change in how
the blood abilities are described in order to account for domain level effects.
I would agree that ECLs for blood abilities should focus on actually
useable powers at the adventure level. In the cases in which they don`t
(Battlewise or Courage) I think there could be some modification to make
them more relevant at the adventure level. Battlewise might, for instance,
give bonuses to the adventure level use of some Command skill that allowed
a character to direct others and give them greater than typical bonuses on
attacks, AC, etc. Courage`s radius could be extended (as it is in the BP
system I wrote up) and could have greater effects at higher levels and
ECLs. That`s something I`ll have to think about....
>BTW, I don`t think ECL should reflect domain advantages. Being prince of
>Avanil shouldn`t produce an experience penalty as compared to the count of
>Ilien or Hugo the snake, petty fence in the local burg.
I don`t think it should have the same penalty, certainly, but I do think
there should be some sort of way of accounting for the adventure level
advantage of running a realm. I would compare having control of provinces
or holdings to having a high gp worth of items in one`s inventory per 3e`s
table on "normal" gp values for equipment by character level. Regents have
access to greater resources and can bypass or alleviate interactions with
NPCs or other things common to the adventure level in a way beyond that of
typical D&D adventurers. Depending on the nature of the realm a regent
might be able to call out the local constabulary, get access to mounts,
living quarters, equipment, healing, ships, messengers, the contents of the
treasury, etc. There should be, therefore, some accounting for the
relative ease with which they get through those aspects of adventure level
play--ECL is one possibility, but not the one I would necessarily go
by. One should bear it in mind as something that effects particular
encounters and, therefore, factor it into things like ELs and CR awards,
but it`s not the kind of thing that one needs to "earn" with XP.
To extend the inventory analogy, one method of accounting for inventory`s
effects on play previously suggested was to average the level of the PC
with the level of the inventory he carries. A 4th level character with an
inventory of items equivalent to a typical 6th level character would be 5th
level for the purpose of ELs and CR awards. Similarly, a domain might be
given a gp value and accounted in much the same way. For instance, a
regent`s domain might be valued at 10,000gp and that amount added to his
"inventory" for the purpose of designing adventures and granting XP from
those encounters. Exactly what the gp value of provinces and/or holdings
for this purpose might be I haven`t really figured out yet....
Let`s say, for instance, that Darian Avan dies and leaves his entire domain
to a 1st level character. As DM when designing encounters for such a
character it makes sense that the EL of the encounters could range higher
than a typical 1st level PC. A 10th level character invested with Avanil
might be less drastically influenced when designing
adventures. Conversely, a 1st level character with only a holding level or
two might not be any different from a typical D&D adventurer.
I guess the difference between assigning an ECL and modifying EL/CR based
on such things is something of a "half dozen of one, six of the other"
situation to some extent since effectively lowering the amount of XP
awarded is not much different from raising the amount required to level up,
but from the standpoint of the way the game works I think it might more
sense to handle things that way.
Gary
************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.
Thread Information
Users Browsing this Thread
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Bookmarks