Problem with ranks vs. skill totals

[ryancaveney]

On Sun, 20 Apr 2003, Airgedok wrote:

> Here is an example why rank is better than total.

I think your example illustrates why total is better than rank!

> A genius at grade 1 doesnt not know more that a C- student that has
> graduated or even a child in grade 7. But the genius is getting A`s
> when "skill checks" are called for.

That`s only if you adjust the DC of the skill check to the age of the
student. If the DC is fixed (you give all three people the *same* test,
not three different ones depending on their ages), then the grade they get
is determined precisely by what they actually know -- which is the product
(sum, in D&D`s log scale) of interaction between what they`ve studied
(skill ranks) and what of that study they can remember and relate to other
things (Int bonus). For precisely this reason, taking rank alone into
account is just as incorrect a model as using just ability score.

> The grade 7 student gets only C-`s. What this translates into is that
> while the 0 skill total character is a poor character and fails or
> barely succeeds most of the time he has the training to do the job.

If most of the time he can`t do it, having had the training (but obviously
not learned the material well) simply doesn`t matter. All that matters is
whether, when the test comes, he can actually perform -- and performance
in D&D is defined as die roll + skill ranks + ability score modifiers.

> It doesnt matter how much talent you have or how smart you are without
> a certain amount of training you cant make a skill check.

That depends on exactly what the skill is. More importantly, the amount
by which you benefit from a given amount of training is largely determined
by your innate talents. You cannot have a physical outcome of any kind
without involving both talent and skill; since realm actions are outcomes,
they must include all modifiers from both sides.


Ryan Caveney

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[destowe]

Originally posted by Airgedok





Here is an example why rank is better than total. Rank represnets a min. amount of study needed to obtain the result.

But what we care about is the result.

This is like a DC check. It should not matter how the number was achieved, but what it is. The final result of the DC check is the important number, not the skill/feat/bonuses to get there.

[rev spider]

As soon as skill totals are used, I'm gonna buy a couple 8000gp (only 4 GB! Well, a little more if you use the +10% variant) rings of [relevent skill] +20...

-rev spider

[Eosin the Red]

> rev spider wrote:
> As soon as skill totals are used, I`m gonna buy a couple 8000gp (only 4
GB! Well, a little more if you use the +10% variant) rings of [relevent
skill] +20...
>
> -rev spider
>


If you could buy such a ring, you aren`t playing in any recognizable version
of BR. I heard the CoS, sold out of those and Holy Avengers.


Eosin

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[rev spider]

Originally posted by Eosin the Red
If you could buy such a ring, you aren`t playing in any recognizable version
of BR. I heard the CoS, sold out of those and Holy Avengers.

Well, as to that, me and the Eyeless One play chess every Taelen... I'm sure he has a couple lying around.

My point is there are DM's out there who're gonna give their players standard access to D&D magical equipment. I know, I know- how could they DO such a thing? Seriously, though, the challenge ratings from the MM are (well, supposedly) balanced with your 15th level paladin's +5 holy, bane (undead), ghost touch adamantine bastard sword in mind... and wizards aren't the only ones who can trap a spell in a fine piece of equipment.

Of course, I'll admit I haven't quite read the playtest cover to cover.

-rev spider

[ryancaveney]

On Thu, 8 May 2003, rev spider wrote:

> As soon as skill totals are used, I`m gonna buy a couple rings of
> [relevent skill] +20...

Others have mentioned the price and availability issues, so I won`t focus
on them.

Assuming you can get them, then yes, I think every regent ought to be
investing in magic items which make them better regents! It makes perfect
sense to me that they should be allowed to do so. There are a whole bunch
of regent-specific magic items in the Book of Magecraft which help you be
a more effective ruler in various ways, so it seems quite logical that
other (adventure level) magic items might also make you a more effective
ruler -- magic that enables or prevents mind control is only the most
obvious instance. I think this sort of thing ought to be a big part of
"domain treasure" (heirloom items of history and power), and making more
ought to be one of the main goals of court wizards.

Actually, this combined with the idea many of us have that regent
spellcasters have easier (or even exclusive) access to item creation, and
the obvious fact that non-spellcasting regents are the potential patrons
with by far the most money to pay for item-makers` services, makes me
think that *most* magic items existing in Cerilia ought to be ones useful
to regents. In fact, I think that the magical treasure discovered even in
standard adventure campaigns ought logically to favor strongly those sorts
of items which are most useful to regents (and I think Items of Diplomacy,
Bluff and Sense Motive would be particularly popular) and avoid those
which are not of much domain-scale use (like magic weapons with just
pluses; those with additional flashy effects or battlefield morale boosts
or mind-affecting powers would have some domain use, but a straight +4
with no extras is just not very helpful, or at least not nearly so
helpful as a +1 sword of mind-shielding!).


Ryan Caveney

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[Lord Rahvin]

> Well, as to that, me and the Eyeless One play chess every Taelen... I`m sure he has a couple lying around.
>
> My point is there are DM`s out there who`re gonna give their players standard access to D&D magical equipment. I know, I know- how could they DO such a thing? Seriously, though, the challenge ratings from the MM are (well, supposedly) balanced with your 15th level paladin`s +5 holy, bane (undead), ghost touch adamantine bastard sword in mind... and wizards aren`t the only ones who can trap a spell in a fine piece of equipment.
>
> Of course, I`ll admit I haven`t quite read the playtest cover to cover.
>
> -rev spider


Shameless plug:

This is a very good reason why D&D does *not* make a good core system for
Birthright. While the d20 system could easily work with Birthright, it
makes much more sense to draw inspiration from non-D&D materials that don`t
automatically assume this level of power, magical pervasiveness, spell
availability, and monster challenges. It makes much more sense to base
Birthright rules on low-magic or no-magic settings such as d20Modern,
Spycraft, or Wheel of Time.

-Lord Rahvin

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[Eosin the Red]

>>>>> rev spider
My point is there are DM`s out there who`re gonna give their players standard access to D&D magical equipment. I know, I know- how could they DO such a thing? Seriously, though, the challenge ratings from the MM are (well, supposedly) balanced with your 15th level paladin`s +5 holy, bane (undead), ghost touch adamantine bastard sword in mind... and wizards aren`t the only ones who can trap a spell in a fine piece of equipment.

Couple of notes. I don`t use many monsters, the worst monsters in BR are players and the intelligent races. So adjusting monsters to fit in my game has never been a problem.

I don`t use standard D&D - I use a Wheel of Time RPG hybrid (added clerics and paladins). It works very well for BR and avoids the problems of "Standard D&D Magical Items."

I would rather tailor the rules to the world, than tailor the world to the rules.

Eosin

Later,

Randy ~ Eosin

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[ryancaveney]

On Thu, 8 May 2003, Eosin the Red wrote:

> I would rather tailor the rules to the world,
> than tailor the world to the rules.

Woohoo! Sing it loud!


Ryan Caveney

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[Osprey]

Wow, talk about a never-ending list of postings!

I've been running a D20 Birthright campaign for the last 6 months (since the playtest version came out). In my game, I decided that Regency collection should be based on ranks, not totals. Why? Because in some skills, like Diplomacy, it gets really easy to have high scores, thanks to multiple synergies (Bluff and Sense Motive), and the fact that many regents have good Charisma. So for the sake of game balance (because the average regent shouldn't get full collection for all holding types), I left it at ranks. It keeps things somewhat class-based (i.e., clerics are good at running temples, rogues at running guilds, etc.), and keeps low-level regents from being the political equals of very high-level ones. Personally, I like this aspect of the rules as is.
But when it comes to Synergies for Domain Actions, I decided to go with skill modifiers rather than ranks to determine synergy bonuses (+1 to the Domain action for every +5 in the relevant skill). I see these skill synergies as essential skills in governing a domain, and wanted to reward those with natural talents and enhancing feats. It tends to benefit those with high Intelligence and Charisma abilities, which only makes sense when considering what makes for a good ruler.
As for compatibility with the Players' Handbook synergy rules, well...who cares? Domain Actions are quite a different world than normal skill use, so a different set of rules to govern them isn't unreasonable.
Hope my 2 cents was useful.
Osprey