Divine Elemental Planar Links.

[Trevyr]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Birthright Roleplaying Game Discussion
> [mailto:BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]On Behalf Of Ryan B. Caveney

> Obvious
>
> Avani Fire
> Cuiraecen Lightning
> Kriesha Cold
> Laerme Fire
>
> Unclear
>
> Belinik Acid
> Eloele Acid (Poison?)
> Erik Sonic
> Haelyn Lightning
> Nesirie Sonic
> Ruornil Force (like Magic Missile)
> Sera Sonic

If you wanted to go with Impact as a type of damage (deals subdual damage),
that might make sense for both Erik and Nesirie, given their respect for
life. Water is also semi-associated with impact (I seem to remember a
"Waterball" spell somewhere) but this is kind of weak.

> Nesire gets sonic by process of elimination. Water is typically assigned
> ice or acid as attack elements, but those are the ones most closely
> associated with Azrai and his champions who destroyed her people. She`s
> clearly not fire or lightning, so that leaves sonic. Having arrived at
> that conclusion, I have a more direct justification as well: Nesirie is
> most closely associated with grief, so it is appropriate that her attack
> form should be that of a keening wail.

I find that a bit of a stretch, but I agree that both cold and acid are
problematic for Nesirie. Neither seem to really fit her personality. If I
were to get really creative, I might suggest some sort of emotional attack
("Melancholyball?") but that starts fiddling with the boundaries between
invocation and enchantment. Probably best to leave that alone.

> Ruornil I assigned pure magical force, as found in spells like Magic
> Missile. This makes his attack spells the most powerful (there are no
> Resist/Endure/Protection spells against this "element"), but since he is
> really a wizard and wizards in general are better at destructive spells
> than priests, that is acceptable to me. I picked pure force because it`s
> exactly what I think Vorynn`s attack element should have been, and it ties
> in perfectly with Ruornil having the most direct connection to mebhaighl
> of any of the gods: his attack should be the "rawest" form of magical
> energy available/imaginable.

Makes sense to me.

> Sera gets sonic because Mark suggested it. =)

Ah, the power I wield!

I agreed because she
> doesn`t really seem to fit any of the others, and sound could go with bad
> luck (pianos dropping on you from a great height, as in the cartoon
> cliche). Also, as mentioned for Erik, it could be seen as doing the least
> collateral propery damage, and it is important to her to protect wealth.

I thought sound because it is the opposite of silence, which is related to
stillness, which is the opposite of motion. It seemed the type of damage
that was most directly movement-related.

> While we`re at it, let`s do the old gods, too:
>
> Obvious
>
> Anduiras Lightning
> Basaia Fire
>
> Unclear
> Azrai Acid / Unholy
> Brenna ???
> Masela Cold
> Reynir Sonic / Impact
> Vorynn Force / Holy
>
<snip>
> Masela gets ice because it is standard for water, and there doesn`t seem
> to be anything better, but I`m not really very excited by it, either.

Actually, I`ve always liked the acid/water pairing better than the
cold/water pairing, so my tendency would be to give acid to Masela. That
would give cold to Azrai, which is not great given his association with
snakes, but at least corresponds with darkness (night, caves, Shadow World)
and is the force least associated with life-giving and useful properties
(except maybe lightning, but that`s already assigned). We`re left with sonic
for Brenna, and impact for Reynir.

Neither version is without difficulties. I suppose if you didn`t want to go
with force for Vorynn it might make most sense to give him cold, since
altitude is associated with cold, and Vorynn is associated with the moon,
which hangs up there in the sky...

Mark V.

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[Birthright-L]

Impact doesn`t do subdual damage by default. Actually, it is not a standard
damage type at all.

Subdual damage is simply called `subdual`, and has it`s own specified
effects. For example, constructs and undead are immune to it.

/Carl

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[ryancaveney]

On Sun, 30 Mar 2003, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

> I prefer poison for Eloele.

I do too. I only mentioned acid as the best pick from the five listed in
the 3e Endure Elements spell description, from which we seem to be heading
farther and farther away; I have no trouble with this, since I think
adding poison, crushing, negative and positive energy, etc. to it, and
indeed generalizing and combining basically all the elemental attack and
defense spells in the whole PHB, is where I want my magic system to go.

> For Nesirie, I`d go with force in offensive spells in which the force
> was obviously a blast of high pressure water.

Sure; a water version of a line area spell like Lightning Bolt is a very
nice fire hose. I`d have it extinguish normal fires as a side effect, too.

> [Nesirie:] wall of ice makes the most sence in this context.
> [Sera:] metals make for nice non-offensive spells.

Agreed! Thanks for pointing out I`d forgotten to consider that kind of
spell. If we`re fixing elemental associations, we should fix them all.

> Likewise Sera: sonic damage is fine (though I`d like to hear innovative
> alternatives) but Metalic phenomena would appear polished and precious.

Impact damage as delivered by a large pile of coins falling from the sky?
Or perhaps piercing damage from a cloud of shiny metal flechettes?
Poison is also possible here, given the biological effects of heavy metals
like lead, mercury and arsenic; similarly, she could even use fire, as
sodium explodes into flame, and metals in general handle extreme heat
rather better than many other materials do. I think I like the spray of
metal shards best, though it seems a bit too science-fictiony.

> BTW, before anyone thinks I don`t know which spells are useable by
> clerics, you should consider that the PHB spell lists are not
> universal, especially once I start devising unique spell lists

Oh, definitely. I am also interested in doing this for wizards. I like
the Rolemaster setup in which casters generally keep to just one or two
elements, and there are generic bolt and ball spells which can be cast
using any element. I want most wizards IMC to also have just one or two
elements; yes, a cold wizard has a lot more trouble against trolls or
undead than a fire wizard, but a cold wizard doesn`t accidentally burn
down your village when he misses. My current draft 3e mechanic for this
is that a wizard`s initial element is determined by her bloodline
derivation, and each additional element desired costs a metamagic feat;
I vacillate between making magicians require a feat for even the first
element, treating them all as if they were of Vorynn`s derivation, or
making every elemental spell they cast a shadow evocation.

> Sonic is a nice enough set of rules for Erik`s power, but I`d prefer some
> kind of positive life-force energy which has the properties you describe.

Yes, I can see that. Ideally he`d like something which would not hurt
trees at all but do double damage to undead, like a sort of Circle of Doom
/ Healing Circle effect; this might be too powerful, but could be balanced
perhaps by making all Erik`s attack spells one level higher.

> The thing about sonic energy is that it can be combated by bards,
> silence, and the like, and unless we think that Erik`s power is
> wielded by song (not neccesarily a bad idea), its probabaly not sonic,

Yes, yes, you have something here. Silence should not stop you being
crushed by the earth -- in fact it can be part of being crushed by the
earth! What I really want is pure crushing damage or blunt trauma; I lean
towards saying his attack spells really do just throw rocks at people, or
else deal what the 3e Bigby`s Crushing Hand description calls "grapple
damage (normal, not subdual)."

> > Nesirie is most closely associated with grief, so it is appropriate
> > that her attack form should be that of a keening wail.
>
> I like this, but not as much as I like blasts of water. This does
> raise the question of how many kinds of attacks make sense. I`d think
> that every god would have its prefered spell descriptor (used for
> substitution when dealing with inappropriate desriptors), accepted
> descriptors (no need to substitue) and forbidden descriptors (should
> substitue).

This seems like a fine plan; it might even end up being less work than
rewriting all clerical spell lists to use a single element each. I still
sort of want to change everything to be Elemental Bolt / Element Ball /
Cone of Element / Wall of Element / etc. for the wizards to fit into, but
in the metamagic feat approach I outlined above, I might buy the idea of a
clerical list being more restrictive but as a balance providing two (or
even three in some cases) available attack forms.


Ryan Caveney

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[ryancaveney]

On Sun, 30 Mar 2003, Mark VanderMeulen wrote:

> If you wanted to go with Impact as a type of damage (deals subdual
> damage), that might make sense for both Erik and Nesirie, given their
> respect for life. Water is also semi-associated with impact (I seem
> to remember a "Waterball" spell somewhere) but this is kind of weak.

No, I think it ought to be normal damage -- respect for life means you
don`t choose to cast such spells very often; but when you do, earth and
water mean you do it with the full force of an earthquake or tidal wave,
both of which are overwhelmingly destructive.

Now, as for Starfox`s objection that impact isn`t a standard elemental
attack type. There are some spells that inflict it, like the Bigby`s Hand
spell I mentioned, and of course many monsters have a "slam" attack.
Impact as an elemental damage type would act like a slam, except that it
would penetrate resistance to nonmagical weapons just as any other spell
would; and you could cast any of Endure / Resist / Protection From Element
with impact as the chosen type and obtain the normal effect against spells
doing that damage type (but likely not slam or blunt weapon attacks in
general, lest the defensive spells become too powerful). Certain monsters
should also be given resistance or immunity to it. Is that satisfactory?

> I find that a bit of a stretch, but I agree that both cold and acid are
> problematic for Nesirie. Neither seem to really fit her personality.

Yup. But see Kenneth`s "firehose" suggestion, as your "waterball" above.

> I might suggest some sort of emotional attack ("Melancholyball?") but
> that starts fiddling with the boundaries between invocation and
> enchantment. Probably best to leave that alone.

Yeah, that`s just going a bit too far out there.

> > Sera gets sonic because Mark suggested it. =)
> Ah, the power I wield!

Well, somebody has to. ;>

> I thought sound because it is the opposite of silence, which is
> related to stillness, which is the opposite of motion. It seemed the
> type of damage that was most directly movement-related.

Aha! That`s really quite good, and leads naturally to sonic for Brenna,
too, in a very pleasantly logical fashion. I like this reasoning.

> Actually, I`ve always liked the acid/water pairing better than the
> cold/water pairing, so my tendency would be to give acid to Masela.
> That would give cold to Azrai, which is not great given his
> association with snakes, but at least corresponds with darkness
> (night, caves, Shadow World) and is the force least associated with
> life-giving and useful properties (except maybe lightning, but that`s
> already assigned).

Hmm. OK, I could see this. Might work. Oh, as for lightning`s
life-giving properties: there are some scientists who think that life on
earth began when a bolt of lightning struck a pool of water containing the
right mix of sugars and proteins, and provided the activation energy for
the first self-replicating biochemical structure reaction to begin.
Certainly all nerve and muscle function is electrical in nature.

> We`re left with sonic for Brenna, and impact for Reynir.

Sonic for Brenna you made me like above. For Reynir, I come increasingly
to think that his attack spells should literally smack the targets with
rocks; perhaps they smash into the victim(s) and then continue on directly
into the ground, being absorbed by it without damage, to reflect that he
really is elemental earth. In Khinasi lands, sandstorms could also work.

> I suppose if you didn`t want to go with force for Vorynn it might make
> most sense to give him cold, since altitude is associated with cold,
> and Vorynn is associated with the moon, which hangs up there in the sky.

No, IMO Vorynn is definitely pure magical force, which is really a
different thing from physical impact. In White Wolf`s Mage system terms,
it`s dealing damage directly with Prime, not Matter or Forces (happily,
Cerilian wizards do not have to worry about Paradox). I could even go
with something like "holy" (positive plane) energy, doing double damage to
undead, especially if I also made Azrai`s elemental attacks use "unholy"
(negative plane) energy, doing no damage to (or even healing!) undead.
One possibly nice side effect of this last would be basically forcing any
wizard with an Azrai bloodline to become a necromancer, so as not to be
completely helpless when facing the undead.


Ryan Caveney

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan B. Caveney" <ryanb@CYBERCOM.NET>
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2003 6:22 PM

> Oh, as for lightning`s life-giving properties: there are some scientists
> who think that life on earth began when a bolt of lightning struck a
> pool of water containing the right mix of sugars and proteins [...]
> Certainly all nerve and muscle function is electrical in nature.

And Frankenstein (Its Alive!) Actually I think the Binman owes something to
this as well.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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