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  1. #1
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    The Elemental Control blood ability allows scions with derivations of
    Anduiras, Basaia, Masela and Reynir to summon elementals from appropriate
    planes of existence; air, fire, water and earth. There are three more
    derivations, of course, that might have some sort of planar connection. If
    we were to expand the blood ability for the remaining bloodlines anyone
    have ideas to which plane the derivations of Brenna, Vorynn and Azrai might
    apply to?

    These need not be the four standard planes. Since we`re just speculating
    planes of ooze, magma, lightning, etc. are all possible. Does one or the
    other lend itself to those derivations? Azrai seems pretty obviously
    connected to a Shadow plane, but I`d argue that earth might not be the
    proper plane for Reynir and though there are aspects of sky to Anduiras`
    portfolio, air might not be the most appropriate for that derivation. I`m
    not at all adverse to completely realigning the derivations of the gods
    should that make sense. Anyone have thoughts on this?

    Gary

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  2. #2
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    Don't fix it if it ain't broke... ;)

    Seriously though, I think I read something about this elsewhere. A netbook, perhaps. According to what I read, Azrai was affiliated with the Negative Energy Plane, Brenna with the Ethereal, and Vorynn with the Positive.

  3. #3
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    Please spare us magma-para-elementals!

    Andurias and air seems rather obvious - air being the traditional element of
    nobles and kings. But I see no real need for an element for the other
    bloodlines.

    If we really want such conncetions how about:

    Reynir - wood (à la OA)
    Azrai - shadow (as proposed)
    Brenna - money? Sera seems to be the god most associated with this plane, so
    extra-planar associations seem wrong to me.
    Vorynn - moon (per Seulune in FR)

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  4. #4
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 05:39 AM 3/28/2003 +0100, Shade wrote:

    >Seriously though, I think I read something about this elsewhere. A
    >netbook, perhaps. According to what I read, Azrai was affiliated with the
    >Negative Energy Plane, Brenna with the Ethereal, and Vorynn with the Positive.

    If you remember where you read that I`d be interested.

    Azrai seems like he could have had more than one affiliation... which I
    kind of like, honestly. There are a couple of neg/pos energy plane
    creatures that could qualify for "elemental" summoning. They`d need to be
    scaled a bit for the system I`m playing with, but that`s not that big a
    problem.

    Brenna still doesn`t really strike me as having any particular Inner Plane
    association, so I may skip that derivation.

    At 08:27 AM 3/28/2003 +0100, Starfox wrote:

    >Andurias and air seems rather obvious - air being the traditional element
    >of nobles and kings. But I see no real need for an element for the other
    >bloodlines.

    Maybe it`s just me. Air seems a rather insubstantial and flighty kind of
    thing, not quite what I picture The Lawmaker manifesting. It doesn`t
    _really_ matter, of course.

    >If we really want such conncetions how about:
    >
    >Reynir - wood (à la OA)
    >Azrai - shadow (as proposed)
    >Brenna - money? Sera seems to be the god most associated with this plane, so
    >extra-planar associations seem wrong to me.
    >Vorynn - moon (per Seulune in FR)

    Associating Reynir does free up the elemental plane of Earth for another
    bloodline.... It seems most apt to describe Moradin than one of the
    derivations, really, but I suppose one could connect it up with Brenna if
    for no other reason than to round them all out.

    Gary

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  5. #5
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    Gary wrote:

    > The Elemental Control blood ability allows scions with derivations of
    > Anduiras, Basaia, Masela and Reynir to summon elementals from appropriate
    > planes of existence; air, fire, water and earth. There are three more
    > derivations, of course, that might have some sort of planar
    > connection. If
    > we were to expand the blood ability for the remaining bloodlines anyone
    > have ideas to which plane the derivations of Brenna, Vorynn and Azrai
    > might
    > apply to?
    > These need not be the four standard planes. Since we`re just speculating
    > planes of ooze, magma, lightning, etc. are all possible. Does one or the
    > other lend itself to those derivations? Azrai seems pretty obviously
    > connected to a Shadow plane, but I`d argue that earth might not be the
    > proper plane for Reynir and though there are aspects of sky to Anduiras`
    > portfolio, air might not be the most appropriate for that derivation.
    > I`m
    > not at all adverse to completely realigning the derivations of the gods
    > should that make sense. Anyone have thoughts on this?
    > Gary

    I would advice you NOT to have them summon elementals from the plane of
    whatever.
    Aebrynnis has and should not have connections to other planes, except
    the shadowworld.
    Better would be a rule, that was used in COG II, that summoned being
    always had to be native to Aebrynnis.

    In the case of Elemental Control I would suggest to summon e.g. an air
    elemental that´s already there somewhere in the wind around you, or an
    fire elemantal out of the campfire you built or from the rock you touch.

    Extending the ability to derivation who did not have them before is not
    desirable. The four natural elements are represented by four gods
    derivations only and giving other derivations similar powers is making
    them generic. Why had only Azrai and Anduiras Battlewise? Hey, give
    Masela Battlewise on naval battles and Reynir in forests and Vorynn
    under a full moon and Basaia when the sun is high... The sun is high?
    Moses raising his arms praying and winning a battle - Basaia ought to
    grant it as well... ;-)
    bye
    Michael Romes

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  6. #6
    Senior Member ryancaveney's Avatar
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    On Fri, 28 Mar 2003, Shade wrote:

    > I think I read something about this elsewhere. A netbook, perhaps.
    > According to what I read, Azrai was affiliated with the Negative
    > Energy Plane, Brenna with the Ethereal, and Vorynn with the Positive.

    I don`t know if you read about it elsewhere also, but I know you`ve read
    it right here -- I`ve been suggesting this connection for years. Most
    recently, I mentioned it only twelve days ago. =)


    Ryan Caveney

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  7. #7
    Senior Member ryancaveney's Avatar
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    On Fri, 28 Mar 2003, Gary wrote:

    > If you remember where you read that I`d be interested.

    Now you`ve hurt my feelings. ;) Actually, Azrai = Negative and Vorynn =
    Positive strikes me as so obvious that lots of people should have thought
    of it independently.

    > There are a couple of neg/pos energy plane creatures that could
    > qualify for "elemental" summoning.

    Xag-Ya and Xeg-Yi are the only things which leap to my mind.

    > They`d need to be scaled a bit for the system I`m playing with,

    And what system is that?

    > Brenna still doesn`t really strike me as having any particular Inner Plane
    > association, so I may skip that derivation.

    I was actually working on a post about this in response to a different
    thread, so I suppose I`ll just have to finish that up. =)

    > Starfox wrote:
    > > Reynir - wood (à la OA)

    Wood as an elemental plane separate from Earth? I suppose it would be
    something more like an endless forest, rather than forever underground?
    If you`re going to go that route, I`d say associate him directly with the
    Prime Material! He could summon magically-pumped natural creatures
    instead of elementals; in 3e perhaps celestial dire bears.

    > > Brenna - money? Sera seems to be the god most associated with this
    > > plane, so extra-planar associations seem wrong to me.

    Brenna is *motion*, not money. Sera`s association with commerce
    interprets Brenna in light of Brecht mercantilism: their favorite kind of
    motion is the motion of money, goods and services.

    > > Vorynn - moon (per Seulune in FR)

    Yes, but is there a plane of "moonness"? IMO, if sun=fire, then moon &
    magic (Vorynn`s portfolio) = positive energy.

    > Associating Reynir does free up the elemental plane of Earth for
    > another bloodline.... It seems most apt to describe Moradin than one
    > of the derivations, really, but I suppose one could connect it up with
    > Brenna if for no other reason than to round them all out.

    Brenna is definitely not Earth. Since you don`t like Anduiras = Air, you
    could give him Earth and give Air to Brenna.


    Ryan Caveney

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  8. #8
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 10:16 AM 3/28/2003 -0500, Ryan Caveney wrote:

    > > There are a couple of neg/pos energy plane creatures that could
    > > qualify for "elemental" summoning.
    >
    >Xag-Ya and Xeg-Yi are the only things which leap to my mind.
    >
    > > They`d need to be scaled a bit for the system I`m playing with,
    >
    >And what system is that?

    The Bloodline Point stuff I`ve mentioned a few times. Elemental Control
    was one of the first blood abilities that I wrote up. It`s gone through a
    little tweaking since then, but the basic power remains the same; a scion
    with the ability can summon an elemental with 1 HD per BP he puts into the
    ability--though I`m thinking now that should be 2HD/BP....

    So to reflect the ability of a scion of Vorynn to summon a X-Y from the
    plane of positive energy that monster would have to be "scaled" from 2HD to
    18HD. Since Savage Species did exactly that kind of thing with the four
    "standard" elementals it shouldn`t be terribly difficult to replicate.

    > > Brenna still doesn`t really strike me as having any particular Inner Plane
    > > association, so I may skip that derivation.
    >
    >I was actually working on a post about this in response to a different
    >thread, so I suppose I`ll just have to finish that up. =)

    Looking forward to it.

    > > Starfox wrote:
    > > > Reynir - wood (à la OA)
    >
    >Wood as an elemental plane separate from Earth? I suppose it would be
    >something more like an endless forest, rather than forever underground?
    >If you`re going to go that route, I`d say associate him directly with the
    >Prime Material! He could summon magically-pumped natural creatures
    >instead of elementals; in 3e perhaps celestial dire bears.

    I was thinking he`d summon a "wood spirit" that animated a tree in a manner
    similar to the treant/Liveoak spell. It would, however, have HD per the BP
    spent on the ability and would need to be scaled appropriately. There`s an
    enhancement to the blood ability description that allows scions to summon
    elemental creatures other than elementals as long as they are of the
    appropriate HD, so a scion with Reynir`s version of this ability could
    "summon" various animate plants.

    As a matter of fact, the description of the Plane of Wood and the idea that
    a scion of Reynir would more aptly "animate trees" rather than summon an
    earth elemental is what started the speculation about the association of
    the remaining three derivations with the elemental planes.

    Gary

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  9. #9
    Senior Member ryancaveney's Avatar
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    On Fri, 28 Mar 2003, Gary wrote:

    > I was thinking he`d summon a "wood spirit" that animated a tree in a
    > manner similar to the treant/Liveoak spell.

    Oh! Yes, of course. I like it.

    OTOH, I`ve got to say -- maybe it`s only Erik who`s so focused on trees,
    and Reynir was more focused on just the dirt. Similarly, maybe it`s only
    Haelyn who`s so keen on noble war and leadership; perhaps the original
    Anduiras was just your standard generic sky god, so air would indeed be
    more appropriate than it would if trying to assign elements to the living
    gods. Actually, I think you`ve made up my mind for me: the old gods were
    very primal forces, not much tied to everyday life, so they should have
    pure elemental associations. The newer, once-human gods are the first
    ones who should have philosophical aspects to their portfolios. E.g.,
    Haelyn = law & justice and Cuiraecen = battle, but Anduiras = Air/Storm;
    Avani = Reason and Laerme = Passion, but Basaia = Fire; Kriesha = Cruelty
    and Belinik = Terror, but Azrai = Entropy (in the thermodynamic sense).


    Ryan Caveney

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  10. #10
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 11:08 AM 3/28/2003 -0500, Ryan Caveney wrote:

    >OTOH, I`ve got to say -- maybe it`s only Erik who`s so focused on trees,
    >and Reynir was more focused on just the dirt. Similarly, maybe it`s only
    >Haelyn who`s so keen on noble war and leadership; perhaps the original
    >Anduiras was just your standard generic sky god, so air would indeed be
    >more appropriate than it would if trying to assign elements to the living
    >gods. Actually, I think you`ve made up my mind for me: the old gods were
    >very primal forces, not much tied to everyday life, so they should have
    >pure elemental associations. The newer, once-human gods are the first
    >ones who should have philosophical aspects to their portfolios. E.g.,
    >Haelyn = law & justice and Cuiraecen = battle, but Anduiras = Air/Storm;
    >Avani = Reason and Laerme = Passion, but Basaia = Fire; Kriesha = Cruelty
    >and Belinik = Terror, but Azrai = Entropy (in the thermodynamic sense).

    Now that`s interesting. I`ve always assumed that the new gods took on
    identical (or nearly so) portfolios and aspects to the ones they
    supplanted, but there`s really no reason to make that assumption. In the
    case of Azrai`s successors the portfolios they adopted are quite different
    from the way he is described. That would indicate that the process of
    apotheosis did not make the new gods carbon copies of the old ones. I
    think there are some thematic reasons why the new gods would stay closer in
    basic demeanor and demesne to the gods they replaced--mostly having to do
    with the way Azrai`s bloodline is corrupting in such an unpredictable way,
    while most of the "good" derivations remain more true to form--but that
    doesn`t mean they would be _exactly_ like their predecessors.... I don`t
    think I`d extend the thinking so far as to make the new gods very different
    from the old ones, but some shifts here in there in emphasis, not to
    mention the seemingly broader scope of the new gods` duties--some of them
    seem to have more areas that they cover than is typical for D&D
    deities--would be explained by such a thing.

    Still, I think I`d like to keep the Reynir --> Wood link since it seems to
    work so nicely. I might use something like the above, however, to
    rationalize Brenna --> Earth.

    The expanded bloodline derivation planar connections, BTW, is written up as
    an optional rule for that blood ability with the original four described as
    the "standard" Elemental Control. It really amounts to a few paragraphs of
    additional text, so I don`t think it`ll be a problem. Particularly since
    one of the enhancements for that blood ability is that one can spend a BP
    to gain the ability to summon elementals from planes "adjacent" to ones
    that the scion`s derivation gives him access to. Several posts on this
    subject lead me to suspect that`ll offend the sensibilities of a few folks,
    but I just think it`s such a cool mechanic in practice that I`m going to
    keep it as is. It`d be easy enough for someone to strike out of the text
    for their personal use.

    Gary

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