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Thread: Ship yards in D20
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03-27-2003, 11:36 PM #11
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> It could also be that most of those galleons came from the same
shipyard(s), and were purchased, not built, by the "power" in question.
Yes but Darien Avan controls the old Imperial Ship yard. Why would he
allow Aeric Boeruine or any of that axis to purchase these ships? If Avanil
is the only one capable of producing the Galleons why does any non-allied
power have them? Why hasn`t there been an attempt to destroy the galleons
of foreign powers and then reign supreme at sea due to the fact that he and
he alone controls the production of galleons.
Also how is anyone in Khinasi building or even owning Zebecs? They can not
be built the way the rules stand ANYWHERE in khinasi. Whats the party line
of logic to explain that?
-Anakin Miller
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"What was sundered, shall be remade.
What was stolen, shall be avenged. "
- Engraved on the Crown of Diemed
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with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.Who are you to speak to me of loneliness, you who have not suffered as I have suffered. My father was lord of the Andu, ruler of a million souls, but not once did he ever claim me as his son. All those years I waited for a single word from him, a simple acknowledgment of my birthright. But, not even on his death bed did he claim me as his. So do not speak to me of your loneliness, you who have never been as alone as I have been all my life.
- Prince Raesene Andu, -2 HC.
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03-27-2003, 11:36 PM #12
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> It is "realistic," after all, for a country like Osoerde, with its
> largest seaport being either a mudhole or having at most, say, 5000
> people, to be churning out the galleons.
Ok then I guess it is just as "realistic" for Avan to be selling Galleons to
his archrival and life long foe Aeric Boeruine. Sure, lets make sure our
archnemesis is supplied with the most powerful warships in Anuire.....
-Anakin Miller
-------------------------
"What was sundered, shall be remade.
What was stolen, shall be avenged. "
- Engraved on the Crown of Diemed
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with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.Who are you to speak to me of loneliness, you who have not suffered as I have suffered. My father was lord of the Andu, ruler of a million souls, but not once did he ever claim me as his son. All those years I waited for a single word from him, a simple acknowledgment of my birthright. But, not even on his death bed did he claim me as his. So do not speak to me of your loneliness, you who have never been as alone as I have been all my life.
- Prince Raesene Andu, -2 HC.
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03-28-2003, 01:43 PM #13
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Stephen Starfox wrote:
>Fleets have always been expensive. Only the riches nations of history ever
>built large fleet. But in antiquity, they generally generated was wealth
>through control of trade routes. A large fleet is a sign of an empire.
>
Such as ancient China and Russia or the Mongols? ;-)
Certainly the german Empire did rush to build a fleet in a try to match
the british seapower - however the main focus of some empires is on
land. And Anuire does have less of a naval tradition than Brechtür or
Khinasi.
No realm in Anuire stays out in my eyes to be the "England" of Anuire
and have naval superiority - that would be more fitting for a Khinasi
island realm.
bye
Michael Romes
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03-28-2003, 02:29 PM #14
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Every nation with a large fleet is an empire - but not every empire has a
large fleet. :)
/Carl
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03-28-2003, 02:29 PM #15
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Mark_Aurel wrote:
>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1496
>...Who cares if only one shipyard in all of Anuire
>can build galleons, its not like just about everypower in Anuire has at
>least one.
>-Anakin Miller
>[/quote]
>
>Yeah, I guess any grandpa in a fishing village could whip up a galleon on his spare time if he went for it.
>It could also be that most of those galleons came from the same shipyard(s), and were purchased, not built, by the "power" in question.
>Building a vessel the size of a galleon requires a lot of expertise and manpower in medieval terms; most fishing villages would be able to construct their own little fishing vessels, but they`d most definitely not be able to whip a caravel, far less a galleon. It`d also cost ruinous amounts for a small nation to build up the expertise and equipment necessary to do so, especially when you consider the "Birthright scale." As I recall, Venice was producing ships on a fairly industrial basis in late medieval/renaissance Europe. Then again, Venice had a population larger than the majority of Anuirean "nations." Reminds me of something, maybe. Or, it could just be gross oversight on my part.
>It is "realistic," after all, for a country like Osoerde, with its largest seaport being either a mudhole or having at most, say, 5000 people, to be churning out the galleons. And, now that I think about it, Diemed, Boeruine, and Alamie are all famous for their shipcraft.
>However, there is a couple of holes that need to be plugged concerning that rule, but they aren`t necessarily related to your complaint.
>
Anakin is correct in that I, too see it as undesirable to have only 1
province in Anuire able to produce galleons.
I read through it and the draft 0.0 requires a shipyard of larger than
half the ships value to build the ship.
Galleon 15 GB, shipyard at least 8 (8X2=16 so o.k. to build galleon). A
shipyard can exist only in a province of similar level, son only level 8
provinces would fit and this leaves only Anuire city. Even worse, a
Zhebec could be built only in a province of level 9 :-(
The DMG gives prices for warships and galleys of 25000 gp to 30.000 gp
(p. 150 DMG). According to the Community and wealth rules on p. 137 DMG
these ships should be able to be built in Large Citys and Metropolis of
population 12000 onward.
p. 88 of the draft 0.0 rules sets Large Citys and populations equal or
higher to that from level 7 onward.
It would seem much more approbiate to me if not only Anuire City, but at
least also Illien and Anuire province could build galleons, but to me
personally this still is not enough.
The 2E rules had no written limit on where large ships could be built,
only that sea trade routes needed at least a level 4 province with
access to water. However building was possible, just more expensive in
smaller provinces and using the build rate of 1D6 per season would take
considerably longer. Even the draft 0.0 has this lowlevel province, 150%
up to 200% higher build cost rule.
I would suggest NOT to create an Anuire City Monopoly on Galleons which
would be COMPLETELY different from the 2E version where no such
restriction existed.
Rather I suggest to change the rules to a shipyard being able to build
ships of 3 instead of 2 times the shipyards size and thus galleons in
provinces of level 5+. And if a ruler REALLY wants to build a galleon
himself and he has only a level 3 province, then let him do so at
extraorbitant costs. Certainly it is difficult and extremely expensive
to build an advanced ship at a desolate place, but if one ruler is rich
or insane enough then let him do and pay for it.
bye
Michael Romes
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03-28-2003, 02:29 PM #16
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Atarikid wrote:
>>It is "realistic," after all, for a country like Osoerde, with its
>>largest seaport being either a mudhole or having at most, say, 5000
>>people, to be churning out the galleons.
>>
>Ok then I guess it is just as "realistic" for Avan to be selling Galleons to
>his archrival and life long foe Aeric Boeruine. Sure, lets make sure our
>archnemesis is supplied with the most powerful warships in Anuire.....
>-Anakin Miller
>
No, the Chamberlain would sell them to both of them and ;-)
Anuire province is only level 7, only Anuire City has the sufficient
level according to the draft 0.0 rules.
bye
Michael Romes
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03-28-2003, 02:29 PM #17
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Milos Rasic wrote:
>>It is "realistic," after all, for a country like Osoerde, with its
>>largest seaport being either a mudhole or having at most, say, 5000
>>people, to be churning out the galleons. And, now that I think about it,
>>Diemed, Boeruine, and Alamie are all famous for their shipcraft.
>>
>
>Please tell me you meant Avanil, not Alamie.
>
I assume he used sarcasme or irony and REALLY wanted to say Alamie
(which has a port city) to show that they should not be able to build
galleons under the draft rules.
bye
Michael Romes
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03-29-2003, 09:24 AM #18
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Originally posted by ConjurerDragon
Rather I suggest to change the rules to a shipyard being able to build
ships of 3 instead of 2 times the shipyards size and thus galleons in
provinces of level 5+. And if a ruler REALLY wants to build a galleon
himself and he has only a level 3 province, then let him do so at
extraorbitant costs. Certainly it is difficult and extremely expensive
to build an advanced ship at a desolate place, but if one ruler is rich
or insane enough then let him do and pay for it.
bye
Michael Romes
I see no need for allowing rulers to build their own galleys regrdless, though. He should either improve his home to allow for building (with rule actions - this is what the insane should do), go to another ruler and purchase one (diplomacy? - this is what the rich should do) or let the DM adjudicate a price (adventure or build action - this is allowing the GM to decide if he thinks it should be possible and at what cost, depending upon campaign needs)
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