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Thread: Domain rules

  1. #11
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    On Wed, 26 Mar 2003, irdeggman wrote:
    > Skill focus doesn`t increase your ranks in a skill. It gives a bonus
    > to checks just like the character`s applicable ability modifier does.
    > While I understand what you are getting at, it just doesn`t seem to
    > fit in with the 3rd ed game mechanics. I mean counting skill focus as
    > an increase in ranks - this would also mean that a character couldn`t
    > exceed his max ranks due to class if it counted as such.

    Forget the ranks, they don`t matter. I don`t want skill focus to improve
    ranks. The number on the chart /shouldn`t/ monitor ranks, it should
    monitor how good you are at the relevant skills. That includes a skill
    focus feat (`extra training`) and relevant attribute modifiers (`natural
    aptitude`).

    > If the system was specifying a max adjusted modifier, it would also
    > seem to be a little out of whack since it would be rewarding those
    > with high ability scores instead of those who have spent time
    > "studying" and "appying themselves" at getting better at a certain
    > skill.

    Shouldn`t they be rewarded? To pick a random example, a person with a 18
    charisma and no diplomacy ranks is going to be a better regent than
    someone with a 10 charisma and 2 skill ranks.
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  2. #12
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    On Wed, 26 Mar 2003, daniel mcsorley wrote:

    > Shouldn`t they be rewarded? To pick a random example, a person with a 18
    > charisma and no diplomacy ranks is going to be a better regent than
    > someone with a 10 charisma and 2 skill ranks.

    Agreed. I`m still not too comfortable with the whole "skills determine RP
    collection" idea -- but if you are going to use it, then the number you
    use in the calculation should definitely be the final total modifier from
    all sources (including magic items and racial bonuses or penalties, in
    addition to those things already mentioned), not just raw ranks.


    Ryan Caveney

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  3. #13
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    I would prefer it if a single skill could be used to determine a character`s
    ability to rule each type of holding. Here is a proposal. It is very similar
    to having a class prerequisite, but does allow characters to cross-train to
    gain this ability at high level. If a minimum skill bonus is set (say skill
    bonus +5), it also makes it somewhat more problematic for multi-classed
    charcters.

    Guild: Appraise
    A class skill for bards and rogues, this is the ability to know what is
    worth how much where - the very most basic skill for comerce. Sure, most
    rogues/bards will have many other skills as well, depending on their exact
    commercial activity. A thief will have theif skills, a craftsman craft
    skills, a merchant merchantile skills. But they all need to know the rules
    of comerce - governed by appraise.

    Temple: Diplomacy andthe ability to cast divine spells
    Class skill for bards, clerics, druids, monks, paladins, and rogues. But
    only clerics, druids and paladins ever cast divine spells.

    Source: Knowledge (Arcana) and ability to cast arcane spells
    Class skill for bards, clerics, monks, sorcerers, and wizards, but only
    bards sorcerers, and wizards can cast arcane spells.

    Law: Ride
    While ride skill might seem spurious, the most important distinction between
    commoner and noble is the ability to ride, and ride well. Riding ability
    confers prestige. Ride is also the only skill that a suitable set of classes
    have as a class skill: barbarian, fighter, paladin, ranger.

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  4. #14
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Stephen Starfox" <stephen_starfox@YAHOO.SE>
    Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 6:40 AM


    > A bigger issue IMO, is that the current system is over-complex.
    > The various percentages of the full RP income from a
    > province that characters at various skill levels can use is
    > bewildering and unworkable without a spreadsheet.

    That`s why no matter what becomes official, semi-official, or
    pseudo-official, I prefer to just eyeball which holdings a character can
    collect full, half, or no regency for. A simple paragraph describing the
    exemplar principle would be sufficient to explain it. It would not be hard
    and fast, but apparently Spot checks aren`t hard and fast either.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  5. #15
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    Ryan B. Caveney wrote:

    >On Wed, 26 Mar 2003, daniel mcsorley wrote:
    >
    >>Shouldn`t they be rewarded? To pick a random example, a person with a 18
    >>charisma and no diplomacy ranks is going to be a better regent than
    >>someone with a 10 charisma and 2 skill ranks.
    >>
    >Agreed. I`m still not too comfortable with the whole "skills determine RP
    >collection" idea -- but if you are going to use it, then the number you
    >use in the calculation should definitely be the final total modifier from
    >all sources (including magic items and racial bonuses or penalties, in
    >addition to those things already mentioned), not just raw ranks.
    >
    And if we limit collection of RP by skill of regent, then we should also
    limit the collection of GB by the same logic ;-)
    bye
    Michael Romes

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  6. #16
    On the collection of RP:

    Why can`t each character be assigned 150% collection potential? If he was a law regent, he might collect 100% from Law holdings and 50% Guild holdings. A Paladin might choose 100% Law and 50% Guild. A cleric might take 100% temple and 50% law.

    Wizards as always bite the regency bullet - and just collect 100% source. I suppose you could give them 150% and they could do 100% Source, 25% Law & 25% Guild?

    The base percentages should be fluid during construction. FREX: Haelyn`s Clerics might take 75% Law and 75% Temple? Harold Khorien might take 100% Magic and 50% Law, while a wizard/priest regent of Medoere might (unwisely) take 50% Law, 50% Temple, and 50% Source.

    This allows the player some control but divorces the process from all of the problems associated with basing it on endlessly variable classes, PrCs, and multiclassing?


    Eosin

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  7. #17
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 04:59 PM 3/26/2003 -0500, Ryan Caveney wrote:

    >I`m still not too comfortable with the whole "skills determine RP
    >collection" idea -- but if you are going to use it, then the number you
    >use in the calculation should definitely be the final total modifier from
    >all sources (including magic items and racial bonuses or penalties, in
    >addition to those things already mentioned), not just raw ranks.

    To me this should really be one or the other. Characters should collect RP
    based on their character classes, based their ranks in particular
    skills. Combining the two concepts leads to a rather muddled system that
    makes the restrictions rather anemic. It seems more sensible to just open
    up RP collection to any character regardless of skill, class, etc. if one
    is going to allow for both methods at once.

    Having said that, the problem with the skill based approach, IMO, is that
    it is arguable on many levels what skills should apply to which domain
    feature, and what ranks would be required to order to collect regency. I
    could see an argument for several different skills for each of the
    holdings. An argument could be made that Sense Motive is the paramount
    skill in collecting regency, and that it should allow regency collection
    from all types of holdings. At what point should ranks be an
    issue? 5? 10? 15? Should different ranks allow for different
    percentages of RP collection? Should feats that improve skills influence
    how much RP one can collect? There are too many permutations possible, one
    could write a whole chapter on the possibilities, and none in particular
    strikes me as standing out amongst the rest as being demonstrably superior
    to any other. Combining a skill based approach with a character class
    based approach adds a level or three of more options to how one could view
    RP collection. Character class alone as the basis for RP collection has
    the benefit of simplicity if nothing else.

    Gary

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  8. #18
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    On Wed, 26 Mar 2003, Eosin the Red wrote:

    > The base percentages should be fluid during construction. FREX:
    > Haelyn`s Clerics might take 75% Law and 75% Temple? Harold Khorien
    > might take 100% Magic and 50% Law, while a wizard/priest regent of
    > Medoere might (unwisely) take 50% Law, 50% Temple, and 50% Source.

    I really, really like this approach!

    It is *vastly* superior to nearly anything else I`ve ever heard suggested
    on the topic. If RP collection is to be limited based on holding type,
    this is definitely the way to do it. Personally, I am still partial to
    "everyone gets 100% of everything", but if I were to change from that I`d
    change to this.

    One question: can you change your mind later? If so, what penalties, if
    any, would the changer face? One way I can see to do it is to spend one
    domain turn collecting regency using the lower of the new numbers and the
    old numbers.

    Thanks, Eosin! This is immensely better than multiclassing.


    Ryan Caveney

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  9. #19
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    On Wed, 26 Mar 2003, Gary wrote:

    > To me this should really be one or the other. Characters should
    > collect RP based on their character classes, based their ranks in
    > particular skills. Combining the two concepts leads to a rather
    > muddled system

    I agree. (You`re missing an "OR" after the comma, yes? Well, an
    "XOR", really, but I don`t know how widely known that operator is.
    And an "on" after the second "based", but that`s less critical.)

    > that makes the restrictions rather anemic. It seems more sensible to
    > just open up RP collection to any character regardless of skill,
    > class, etc. if one is going to allow for both methods at once.

    Again, agreed.

    > An argument could be made that Sense Motive is the paramount skill in
    > collecting regency, and that it should allow regency collection from
    > all types of holdings.

    The same could be said for Diplomacy.

    > There are too many permutations possible, one could write a whole
    > chapter on the possibilities, and none in particular strikes me as
    > standing out amongst the rest as being demonstrably superior

    Agreed! There`s just too much to tune.


    Ryan Caveney

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  10. #20
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    On Wed, 26 Mar 2003, Michael Romes wrote:
    > And if we limit collection of RP by skill of regent, then we should also
    > limit the collection of GB by the same logic ;-)

    No, that`s blatently stupid. In the original rules, GB collection was
    limited by nothing, RP collection by class. The skill RP limit is an
    attempt to replace the latter in 3e, and the former doesn`t need replacing
    at all.
    --
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    Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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