Multiple Generations?

[Eosin the Red]

Hey Michael (PS are you going to play in Tims PBeM?)

> I have reread the defensive casting, and found it not to be simply DC 15 but DC 15+ spell level.

Defensive casting is pretty much a joke after 5-6th level. Anybody who has played a wizard will verify this. I don`t even get the feat combat casting any more because it is rendered useless.

>>>Long Range spells from Aelies go how far? 400+ (40*16)= 1,040.

> That opens the question about how large is a battlefield area? We know that an entire army unit fits into one, and that spellcasters can cast battlespells into the next square, but I do not remember to have read a more detailed size.

We are mixing apples and oranges. Talking about can a wizard do X and then changing back into a war card scenerio. Using 3e rules MY interp of wizard spells is - personal/short is 1 hex, medium is your hex plus any surronding hex, and long range is Adjacent +1.


> Mmmh, "even by 11th level"? Not many wizards do exist in Cerilia who have reached that level. There is only a handful of those in Cerilia, and I mean they ought to wield powers that demand the respect they deserve.

That is a good point - the majority of listed wizards are 10th level with Isaelie, Aelies, Doeseire, and perhaphs 2-3 others being in the 13-16th range. The most likely culprits are in battle Caine, Toerele, The Eyeless One, Either swamp mage, or the sword mage. I will 100% concur that 11th level wizards should not exist buy the bucket full - but when talking about battle regents many of them do land in the same ball field with a few notably below (Khorien, Aglondier) and a few above.


> But to an army unit of 1st level commoners or warriors most 11th level characters spells death, not just wizards - an 11th level fighter could cleave/great cleave/combat reflex his way through them and with only a non-magical full plate and non-magical large shield would have an AC of 20 from armour alone. He would just need some more rounds.

I agree that the fighter is powerful but when he wades into combat he gets 5-6 attacks on him per round. Assuming that each needs a 20 to hit and that the damage is 3.5 per hit after 1 hour of combat our valient fighter will have taken around 200 hit points of damage. Assuming he kills 4 combatants a round he will have decimated 4 units (800) of levy or irregualrs (elite troops will have higher melee and do him in quicker). There is some equity in this but the mage gets away - the fighter dies. The destruction by the mage is rapid and total, and may route the rest of the army.

But there is a very valid point that high level tweaked fighter-types can be just as inappropiate as spell casters.



>>>> I assumed him [Bannier] to be only a Magician and only to be able to do what he did by the power the Gorgon lent him.

Hmmm, he 100% had sources, that much I know. I could see that you could make that arguement but I think he was a wizard. He did teleport and use several realm spells as well as magic jar.

Eosin

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[ConjurerDragon]

Eosin the Red wrote:

>Hey Michael (PS are you going to play in Tims PBeM?)
>
No, I play only in one game at a time due to lack of playing time and
currently it´s only ITSOD II for me.

>>I have reread the defensive casting, and found it not to be simply DC 15 but DC 15+ spell level.
>>
>Defensive casting is pretty much a joke after 5-6th level. Anybody who has played a wizard will verify this. I don`t even get the feat combat casting any more because it is rendered useless.
>
That depends on the DC. Defensive Casting is for casting without
proviking an AoO. "Combat Casting" gives +4 to the check.
I would rather like to have spellcasters make Concentration checks with
higher DC´s on the battlefield and require them to take Combat Casting
(it sounds as if it allows to cast battlespells anyway) instead of
making a warcraft check and require them to take a newly invented feat
which is ONLY useable for battle spells.

A while ago I mentioned already that my opinion is that to check if a
spell works as it is intended would require a Spellcraft check. Be it to
work undisturbed, or to avoid to hit friendly units I see Spellcraft as
the skill to check. To require Warcraft which is not a class-skill for
spellcasters (in addition to the feat and the specially trained and
therefore weaker military unit) is over-balancing wizards.
...

>But there is a very valid point that high level tweaked fighter-types can be just as inappropiate as spell casters.
>
Or approbiate if you wish to have heroic characters who are able to do
such heroic stuff ;-)
The 2E "heroic fray" allowed heroes to slaughter low-level enemy in the
dozen and army units are lowest-level enemys.

However we agree that
a) Highlevel characters are rare in Cerilia, and high-level true wizards
even moreso;
B) Highlevel characters other than wizards would be able to defeat one
or more army units alone just as wizards, only slower.

Consider the say 9th level Lord of the Realm who uses his money to field
an army, in addition to his personal 9 levels of Aristocrat (Lord) or
Fighter. The 9th level Wizard can´t afford to field an army, only his
personal power matters. In a balanced game for players if both meet on
the battlefield, the Wizard with his personal power and the Lord with
his army then I, personally would say both should be able to be equally
strong. In COG II where I played Torele Anviras we had some extensive
discussions about battle magic (especially with the brililiant player of
Ghoere) ;-)

>>>>>I assumed him [Bannier] to be only a Magician and only to be able to do what he did by the power the Gorgon lent him.
>>>>>
>
>Hmmm, he 100% had sources, that much I know. I could see that you could make that arguement but I think he was a wizard. He did teleport and use several realm spells as well as magic jar.
>
Perhaps through the use of shadow magic like Azrais necromancers or the
lost?
bye
Michael Romes

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[Shade]

>You make spellcasters something comparable to
>a) dragons in the computer game Bard´s Tale IV/Dragon Tales? where each
>city had a dragon who, if release in case of an attack would destroy
>utterly both the attacking army and the city
>B) ballistic nuclear missiles in a balance of power which no one dares
>to break
>
>That heavily restricts spellcasters and therefore I do not like it at all.
>bye
>Michael Romes

Ok Michael,

Then how can you explain why the Gorgon hasn`t already killed Mhoried`s
entire army with spells? Gorgo is a level 16 wizard - he can memorize a
bunch of Abi-Dalzim`s Horrid Wiltings, Delayed Blast Fireballs, Cloudkills
and Ice Storms every day. Combined with teleport without error, fly, and
improved invisibility, I bet he could easily take out 15 units in the span
of a week with hit and run tactics.

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[Peter Lubke]

On Wed, 2003-04-02 at 07:03, Ryan B. Caveney wrote:
On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Michael Romes wrote:

> That is unlogical to me. When a class is in mid- to highlevel (wizards
> are certainly not too strong at low levels) so much more powerful than
> the other classes, then why is that not balanced out in the core rules?

Yes, precisely! I`ve wondered exactly that since the first day I ever saw
a D&D rulebook, more than twenty years ago. Who would design a game that
was so obviously, hideously unbalanced? I still don`t understand.
Because no-one had got past 4th level when the game started. And wizards
were limited to 11 levels not 20 or 25 or unlimited.

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[geeman]

At 11:26 PM 4/2/2003 +1000, Peter Lubke wrote:

>>Yes, precisely! I`ve wondered exactly that since the first day I ever
>>saw a D&D rulebook, more than twenty years ago. Who would design a game
>>that was so obviously, hideously unbalanced? I still don`t understand.
>
>Because no-one had got past 4th level when the game started. And wizards
>were limited to 11 levels not 20 or 25 or unlimited.

There certainly were characters of those levels early in the game`s
development. In retrospect it seems obvious that certain things were
horribly imbalanced in early version of the rules--not just in D&D but in
other game systems too. To a large extent I think that`s just the nature
of the game being in its infancy, but I get a different impression whenever
I go back and read some of those old texts gathering dust on my
shelves. Many things were intentionally vague, and others were articulated
to a ridiculous degree. I think that reflected the biases of the early
designers who had their own interests and ideas that bled into the
rules. In the same way that several folks in the BR community have
expressed the view that blooded characters _should_ be out of balance with
the rest of the campaign setting, I think a similar kind of thinking went
into much of the early game`s development. Certain characters were meant
to be out of balance with others. Magic is probably the most obvious
example of that in the game, but there are several other things that could
be cited.

Gary

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[Peter Lubke]

On Wed, 2003-04-02 at 07:10, Ryan B. Caveney wrote:
On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, daniel mcsorley wrote:

> One thing I`ve done in the past is limit wizards to casting true
> spells of a level equal to their source in the province. This makes
> them homebodies, keeps down the carnage, and gives me the feel I like.
> Outside their native range, a wizard is reduced to lesser magic,
> divinations and illusions mostly, like a magician.

Simple, elegant and highly effective. I like it a lot!
I would also do the same thing to priests by temple holding.


Ryan Caveney

I find it interesting (and no little strange) that D&D has come around
full circle in its development. Battle spells were the first use of
wizards and EHPs (although more at that time from the point of view of
such being monsters - antagonist NPCs).

BR Battle Magic was/is (IMO) over-powered, and, I don`t believe it was
even necessary given the advantages true wizards enjoy on the
battlefield. D&D is no stranger to large battles, although they went out
of style for many years. This example (from an original D&D supplement)
involves forces around the 1300-1500 strong with a number of specials
thrown in. This would be about 6-7 units per side in a BR battle. Magic
is highly effective, but not devastating. A fireball spell takes out
only 13 hobgoblins - but its use had potential morale implications for
the unit and units nearby.

Now Ryan, here is why you should come into the age of next generation
mail readers: I could embed a scanned graphic of some original works I
have - cutesy little army formations, elven spearmen, sub-commander
necromancer, fire giants, orc archers ... etc etc

Appendix C of Swords and Spells (Gary Gygax,, © 1976 TSR Games), a D&D
supplement dedicated to all swords & sorcery gamers, past, present and
future, has an example of game play.

(part listing)
FORCES OF THE EVIL HIGH PRIEST
Unit troop armor wpn spec total
value val val val
The Evil high Priest (CO, 12th level) 30 160 --- 850 1040
Necromancer (sub-CO, displacer cloak) 25 --- --- 580 604
6(60) hobgoblins (elite, polearms) 450 360 60 --- 870

... (on the third turn)
At the beginning of the following turn the EHP is surprised to see a
fire ball crashing into the ranks of his hobgoblins, for the deceptive
fellow (a wizard) has completely ignored the cloud kill .... The
hobgoblins take over 20% casualties, but their morale remains good.

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[ConjurerDragon]

Ryan B. Caveney wrote:

>On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Michael Romes wrote:
>
>...
>
>>A regulation to limit wizards in Birthrigh exists already. They earn
>>no GB from their source holdings as the only class, while all others
>>do from their approbiate holdings.
>>
>True -- but as I have said repeatedly, the domain level is not the
>problem. Wizards are actually the weakest class on the domain level IMO.
>The problem is the adventure level. There, high-level spellcasters are
>all-powerful. If adventure actions can have any influence on the domain
>level, however, then to the highest-level spellcaster go ALL the spoils.
>A single weekend spend invisibly whispering charm spells into the right
>ears could result in every single regent in Anuire investing their entire
>domains to High Mage Aelies in one fell swoop. Unless every regent has a
>magical defender as good as he is, Aelies can reach over and take control
>whenever he wants. Thus, IMO, at the very least we do need Chamberlain
>Dosiere to be an ancient and powerful wizard -- then HE could enforce the
>magical cease-fire, and maybe even keep the Gorgon out.
>
Charming, as you already mentioned in the "Llaedra incites civil war in
Urga-Zai" suggestion will not work as I see it and not here.
Charm spells do not last long. After they wear off the victim is aware
of what has happened.
Even if Llaedra would not use Charm Person (1 hour/level) but Charm
Monster (1day/ level) and use Extend Metamagic (if she has the feat) it
would last only 36 days or roughly one month - while anyone can use
Sense Motive to detect that the goblin king or whomever she charmed is
acting not in his best interest but being charmed (Sense Motive DC 25 p.
73 PHB).

In the meantime I have thought about your problem with the Urga-Zai
goblins ruling a realm next to Llaedra and not being extinct by now. I
came to this insight:
You are right, the goblins can´t survive if Llaedra chooses to scry for
the next goblin, teleport there and Meteor Swarm and repeat this every
day. As a suggestion I would say that Llaedra does not even know Meteor
Swarm because it would hurt trees - she has a comparable spell that lets
pine needles rain like in Iron Throne. No goblin or goblin party can
stand before her wrath.

Solution:
Llaedra= US airforce, can strike where and when she likes and has
superior recon capability with Scrying
Goblins= vietcong to have a comparable situation.

So, as only the Thurazor goblins are mentioned to have forsaken their
mountain lore to do timber cutting, I assume that Urga-Zai is an
underground realm. The goblins live in caves and caverns. Roughly hewn,
narrow passages and living quarters under the earth. Lines of lead and
other ores prevent scrying under the earth (as the DMG hints by having a
lead lined door prevent detection spells). Teleporting into that
situation would mean a high risk to either materialize in stone or to be
directly in a melee. Meteor Storm or Fireball would hurt you in close
quarters as well.

Goblins ascend to the surface only in the night, where their darkvision
beats the low-light vision of the elves. They use the trees as living
shields to avoid being targeted by spells based on fire (fireball,
meteor swarm).

That would mean that Llaedra might very well control the surface of
Urga-Zai from morning to evening, but that the goblins rule from dusk
till dawn by being able to tunnel where they want to strike (like the
goblins did in the novel greatheart into Sielwode.
bye
Michael Romes

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[ConjurerDragon]

Gary wrote:

> At 11:26 PM 4/2/2003 +1000, Peter Lubke wrote:
>
>>> Yes, precisely! I`ve wondered exactly that since the first day I ever
>>> saw a D&D rulebook, more than twenty years ago. Who would design a
>>> game
>>> that was so obviously, hideously unbalanced? I still don`t understand.
>>
>> Because no-one had got past 4th level when the game started. And wizards
>> were limited to 11 levels not 20 or 25 or unlimited.
>
> There certainly were characters of those levels early in the game`s
> development. In retrospect it seems obvious that certain things were
> horribly imbalanced in early version of the rules--not just in D&D but in
> other game systems too. To a large extent I think that`s just the nature
> of the game being in its infancy, but I get a different impression
> whenever
> I go back and read some of those old texts gathering dust on my
> shelves. Many things were intentionally vague, and others were
> articulated
> to a ridiculous degree. I think that reflected the biases of the early
> designers who had their own interests and ideas that bled into the
> rules. In the same way that several folks in the BR community have
> expressed the view that blooded characters _should_ be out of balance
> with
> the rest of the campaign setting, I think a similar kind of thinking went
> into much of the early game`s development. Certain characters were meant
> to be out of balance with others. Magic is probably the most obvious
> example of that in the game, but there are several other things that
> could
> be cited.
> Gary

Right. As I understood Ryan, no character, not even the Gorgon might be
so powerful as he is currently with his wizard levels, because if he
would be we can´t explain why he has not already taken over the world.

If we however weaken him so much that we do no longer have to explain
this, then we lose the dramatic tension of the evil, scheming
overpowerful enemy - something that in Lord of the Rings is brilliantly
done in my opinion. Noone, not even the elfs in Middleearth are capable
of defeating Sauron in the 3rd age or even have a chance of
succeessfully attacking him at the Barad-Dur. The only way to defeat him
is to destroy the large part of his power he stored in his ring.

What remains would be rulers of nearly equal power, where none is so
much more powerful than his neighbours that he could easily conquer them
by personal power alone.
bye
Michael Romes

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[ryancaveney]

On Thu, 3 Apr 2003, Peter Lubke wrote:

> I find it interesting (and no little strange) that D&D has come around
> full circle in its development.

In some ways, yes. I am more a wargamer than a roleplayer anyway -- in
fact, my favorite Gary Gygax design is the board game "Alexander", about
the battle of Gaugamela and at one time published by Avalon Hill.

I am disappointed that the modern version of "Chainmail" has chosen the
Warhammer 40k-ish scale of one figure = one soldier, rather than the
larger unit scale of the original Gygax "Chainmail", but at least I have
BattleSystem.

> Battle spells were the first use of wizards and EHPs

Indeed -- wizards grew out of the artillery rules.

> BR Battle Magic was/is (IMO) over-powered, and, I don`t believe it was
> even necessary given the advantages true wizards enjoy on the
> battlefield.

I agree completely. It does make a nice thematic connection between BR
and something like the MicroProse/SimTex computer game Master of Magic,
and there is some logical basis for imagining a level of magic between
adventure magic and realm magic; but it makes the already most powerful
battlefield weapon even more potent, which is a really bad plan for
anyone who worries at all about balance.

> Now Ryan, here is why you should come into the age of next generation
> mail readers: I could embed a scanned graphic of some original works I
> have - cutesy little army formations, elven spearmen, sub-commander
> necromancer, fire giants, orc archers ... etc etc

You can embed the graphic if you like (but perhaps in a private email, to
prevent overloading folks who have slow download speeds and/or pay for
connection time/size), and I`ll view it in a separate program. =)
Are these pictures of minis on a table, or drawings?

> Appendix C of Swords and Spells (Gary Gygax,, © 1976 TSR Games), a
> D&D supplement dedicated to all swords & sorcery gamers, past, present
> and future, has an example of game play.

This I would really like to see... we should talk more offline.

> Unit troop armor wpn spec total
> value val val val
> The Evil high Priest (CO, 12th level) 30 160 --- 850 1040
> Necromancer (sub-CO, displacer cloak) 25 --- --- 580 604
> 6(60) hobgoblins (elite, polearms) 450 360 60 --- 870

OK, so if I`m reading this right, the 12th-level priest is the equal of 72
of his elite hobgoblin soldiers. That`s probably about the right order of
magnitude, though I`d claim there has been some inflation over time of the
number of hobgobs a "12th-level" caster could take out.

> The hobgoblins take over 20% casualties, but their morale remains good.

Which is not that far off from the BR war card result -- this is just an H
result (the hobs probably have 3 hits, and even elites should usually
break and run when they take over 60% casualties), rather than an R; but
perhaps they have the "ignore F and R from magic" caveat that a number of
BR warcards do (which seems common for elite units of temple regents).


Ryan Caveney

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[ryancaveney]

On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, daniel mcsorley wrote:

> Their [d20 Middle Earth] rule was that you can`t take two
> consecutive levels of the same spellcasting class.

The more I think about it, the more I like this idea. Yes, I remain very
interested in all the variant magic systems others are working on, but in
terms of bang for the buck this tiny little rules change wins hands down,
and if I had to pick a 3e system to use tomorrow, this would be it. I`d
even be tempted to go further and say no more than half your class levels
can be from spellcasting classes...


Ryan Caveney

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