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Thread: Multiple Generations?
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03-25-2003, 07:01 PM #11
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On Tue, 25 Mar 2003, Ariadne wrote:
> I didn`t say I hate domain sheets, I only think they are a minor part.
Whereas I think they are the primary part. Similarly, I don`t hate
adventures -- but I don`t like them as much, so I don`t focus on them.
> If you ONLY play with domain sheets tell me those things: How do
> your players get XP and how long do they need to reach next level?
They don`t have to. Level and XP are no longer strictly needed, except in
determining the exact effects of certain realm spells (e.g., do you get
goblin irregulars or stonecrown ogres from Summoning), and even that could
be straightforwardly rewritten (e.g., different RP costs per unit type).
There is no need for hp, THAC0, etc. if you never have to (there is no way
to) fight a monster. In fact, the only "character sheet" you really
require is the brief listing format from the region books: FAn; F5; Br,
minor, 24; CG. Even that`s a bit much, since bloodline score and class
alone determine regency collection; in a slightly variant rules set, no
notion of character need intrude at all, since you can just say RP = DP
and be done with it.
Ignoring XP completely, you could assign all casters a fixed level, or let
effective level be a function of the highest source/temple holding they
have, or total thereof. Example of system one: use levels as printed in
the books, and no one ever changes. Easy to use, but hard to figure out
how to introduce completely new regents. Example of system two: if your
highest source is a 7, then you cast realm spells as if you were 14th
level. I think I like this way best, though it means wizards in thickly
settled regions are even more screwed than before. Example of system
three: if you have a total of 27 levels of temple holdings, then you cast
realm spells as if you were 9th level. This tends to make biggest realms
even more powerful, and thus leads to faster and less balanced games.
For games that combine both domain actions and adventures, I have used a
variety of tables which award XP for domain actions. In a particularly
simple model I`ve used, in which level is tracked only for spellcasters,
the way to gain levels is to spend RP on realm spells: in 3e language, I`d
say every RP spent on a realm spell gives you 100 xp, so going from level
N to level N+1 requires spending a total of 10(N+1) RP on realm spells.
It`s also easy to award a fixed number (500?) per realm spell, to help out
regents with smaller domains.
In any of these systems, the exact proportionality constants are easy to
tweak to taste. For example, the numbers for realm spell XP I`ve just
presented are designed for moderately rapid advancement, and caster level
equals twice holding level is inspired by max level of spell castable
equals one-half caster level.
Ryan Caveney
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03-26-2003, 01:28 AM #12Originally posted by ConjurerDragon
To add to this I have to say that the only Birthright games I participate in are PBEMS - there are simply not enough players around my area (between Bonn and Koblenz in Germany) to meet once a week and play around a table.
Even the core DMG has a variant rule to gain XP for overcoming tasks not related to "kill orcs or other nastys". The old Birthright.Net site had even a webpage created by a fan with XP values for succeeding at domain actions.
Originally posted by ryancaveney
Level and XP are no longer strictly needed, except in determining the exact effects of certain realm spells (e.g., do you get goblin irregulars or stonecrown ogres from Summoning), and even that could be straightforwardly rewritten (e.g., different RP costs per unit type).May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!
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03-26-2003, 04:00 AM #13
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I wrote:
> > Level and XP are no longer strictly needed,
On Wed, 26 Mar 2003, Ariadne wrote:
> Haven`t your clerics ever wanted to ask questions to their god?
Sure. They ask me, and I tell them what impressions, if any, they
receive. IMO, the results of communing with dieties are never
particularly clear, and caster level really doesn`t have all that much to
do with whether you can figure out what it`s supposed to mean.
> Haven`t your wizards ever wanted to create magical items?
With what purpose? If you never have to fight a monster, individual +3
swords aren`t very interesting. Items useful in battle (a whole pile of
scrolls of Cloudkill is actually the best buy I`ve yet found), and in fact
anything else they like, can be created by the Consecrate Relic realm
spell (which I`ve always made available to wizards), or homebrew versions
of the same such as Starfox`s 1 RP = 5,000 gp of purchase price formula.
> Isn`t it "cool" to cast a fireball, flamestrike or firestom into an
> enemy unit what partly destroyes it completely without risking damage
> to your own units?
Cool, yes. Necessary, no. Which was precisely my point.
In any case, the large-scale use of magic in battle (not specifically
"battle magic" as per the BoM, mind you -- a few conventional fireball
spells is plenty) renders mundane combat units entirely irrelevant. I
would honestly prefer never to have spellcasters get involved in battle at
all; when that doesn`t seem possible, I settle for just trying to minimize
it. Aelies, Queen Isaelie, Torele Anviras, Caine, the Sword Mage, the
Second Swamp Mage, the Eyeless One, the Wizard -- not to mention Rhuobhe
or the Gorgon -- all can cast 5th level spells. Thus each and every one
of them could easily make that pile of scrolls of Cloudkill, and thereby
singlehandely, trivially take out the entire army of any (every!) realm in
Anuire. Since I see really no way to balance it, I feel reduced largely
to just pretending to ignore the problem, which I tend to justify as
"every ruler has a court wizard, and they cancel each other out."
The main idea is that everything you`ve mentioned is purely a flavor
add-on. Furthermore, every one of them needs only an effective caster
level, which as I have said is very easy to calculate directly from
holding levels. Levels, XP, and everything else about any RPG system you
like, D&D or no, can be amusing -- but all that baggage is utterly
unnecessary to a purely domain level game. Sometimes I like to add that
stuff, but sometimes all that overhead is a bigger cost than benefit.
Ryan Caveney
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03-26-2003, 04:36 AM #14
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On Tue, 25 Mar 2003, Ryan B. Caveney wrote:
> I would honestly prefer never to have spellcasters get involved in
> battle at all; when that doesn`t seem possible, I settle for just
> trying to minimize it. Aelies, Queen Isaelie, Torele Anviras, Caine,
> the Sword Mage, the Second Swamp Mage, the Eyeless One, the Wizard --
> not to mention Rhuobhe or the Gorgon -- all can cast 5th level spells.
> Thus each and every one of them could easily make that pile of scrolls
> of Cloudkill, and thereby singlehandely, trivially take out the entire
> army of any (every!) realm in Anuire. Since I see really no way to
> balance it, I feel reduced largely to just pretending to ignore the
> problem, which I tend to justify as "every ruler has a court wizard,
> and they cancel each other out."
Read Sepulchrave`s story hour at enworld for some good examples of high
level magic in battle. Here are some links, I`ll wait.
Lady Despina`s Virtue
http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread....s=&threadid=762
(Be warned: only read the first post in this first thread, then move on to
the second.)
http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread....&threadid=10950
The Heretic of Wyre
http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread....&threadid=13733
http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread....&threadid=18032
The Rape of Morne
http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread....&threadid=24127
http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread....&threadid=43542
Actually, don`t read it now, there`s well over a good sized novel there.
:)
But read it eventually, and you`ll see the damage a single 15th-ish level
druid can do to an army, what a powerful wizard can do to even powerful
creatures, and what an epic spellcaster can do to an entire city. And
it`s a good story to boot.
My original point here, besides being a big fanboy, is the story method
Sep uses to restrain magic in battle in his world. All the wizards
ascribe to an Injunction, that none of them will use magic in political
matters (including war), on pain of eternal Imprisonment (the spell).
This is enforced by the whim of the most powerful wizards in Wyre, which
in the course of the story proves insufficient, so they move on to more
powerful enforcement of the injunction.
I`ve stolen this for my games in Cerilia- source holders and true wizards
in general have an enforced agreement not to take part in battles.
Magicians are somewhat beneath the radar, but between Aelies and a couple
of other powerful wizards, it`s fairly well followed. Their exception is
against the forces of awnsheghlien.
The Haelynites and allied churches will not take part in battle against
the faithful, so that takes out the other big source of battle magic, and
leaves me with the historical battles I enjoy.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu
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03-26-2003, 07:04 AM #15
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daniel mcsorley wrote:
>On Tue, 25 Mar 2003, Ryan B. Caveney wrote:
>
>>I would honestly prefer never to have spellcasters get involved in
>>battle at all; when that doesn`t seem possible, I settle for just
>>trying to minimize it. Aelies, Queen Isaelie, Torele Anviras, Caine,
>>the Sword Mage, the Second Swamp Mage, the Eyeless One, the Wizard --
>>not to mention Rhuobhe or the Gorgon -- all can cast 5th level spells.
>>Thus each and every one of them could easily make that pile of scrolls
>>of Cloudkill, and thereby singlehandely, trivially take out the entire
>>army of any (every!) realm in Anuire. Since I see really no way to
>>balance it, I feel reduced largely to just pretending to ignore the
>>problem, which I tend to justify as "every ruler has a court wizard,
>>and they cancel each other out."
>>
>...
>But read it eventually, and you`ll see the damage a single 15th-ish level
>druid can do to an army, what a powerful wizard can do to even powerful
>creatures, and what an epic spellcaster can do to an entire city. And
>it`s a good story to boot.
>
>My original point here, besides being a big fanboy, is the story method
>Sep uses to restrain magic in battle in his world. All the wizards
>ascribe to an Injunction, that none of them will use magic in political
>matters (including war), on pain of eternal Imprisonment (the spell).
>This is enforced by the whim of the most powerful wizards in Wyre, which
>in the course of the story proves insufficient, so they move on to more
>powerful enforcement of the injunction.
>
>I`ve stolen this for my games in Cerilia- source holders and true wizards
>in general have an enforced agreement not to take part in battles.
>Magicians are somewhat beneath the radar, but between Aelies and a couple
>of other powerful wizards, it`s fairly well followed. Their exception is
>against the forces of awnsheghlien.
>
>The Haelynites and allied churches will not take part in battle against
>the faithful, so that takes out the other big source of battle magic, and
>leaves me with the historical battles I enjoy.
>
You make spellcasters something comparable to
a) dragons in the computer game Bard´s Tale IV/Dragon Tales? where each
city had a dragon who, if release in case of an attack would destroy
utterly both the attacking army and the city
B) ballistic nuclear missiles in a balance of power which no one dares
to break
That heavily restricts spellcasters and therefore I do not like it at all.
bye
Michael Romes
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03-26-2003, 05:37 PM #16
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I wrote:
>>> Thus each and every [major wizard] could... singlehandedly, trivially
>>> take out the entire army of any (every!) realm in Anuire.
Dan McSorley wrote:
>> The Haelynites and allied churches will not take part in battle against
>> the faithful, so that takes out the other big source of battle magic,
>> and leaves me with the historical battles I enjoy.
On Wed, 26 Mar 2003, Michael Romes wrote:
> You make spellcasters something comparable to ballistic nuclear
> missiles in a balance of power which no one dares to break
Well, yes. In terms of overwhelming, irresistable, instantaneous
destructive power, a spellcaster is exactly a tactical nuclear weapon.
Given the way the D&D magic system works, there is no obstacle at all
under standard rules to Rhuobhe Manslayer having *already* personally
killed every single human in Cerilia not directly protected by a
spellcaster of at least equal level. There would be no point in having a
conventional army at all if practical battle magic was as easy to access
as the "Fireball = R result" cards in the original rules, since even a
small number of wizards of fairly moderate level could wipe out huge
numbers of war card units in the blink of an eye, especially if you adopt
the 3e magic item creation rules unmodified. A single Wand of Fireballs
does FIFTY war card hits, which could annihilate the army of most of the
realms in Cerilia with change left over. A standard 5th level wizard in
vanilla 3e could make a bucket full of them.
Therefore, I need some way to change this in order to claim that Cerilia
exists at all in its present form. Story restrictions like "well, he just
hasn`t decided to, yet" don`t help much, because once somebody like the
Gorgon or Rhuobhe or Llaeddra or Aelies or the Magian (all W15+) decides
to do it, nothing could stop their conquest of the entire world except
one-on-one confrontations with each other. Even then, it still rewrites
the entire geopolitical structure of Cerilia almost overnight.
> That heavily restricts spellcasters and therefore I do not like it at all.
I really like spellcasters too, so I`m not happy with these severe
restrictions Dan and I have suggested, but I do feel that something like
them must be in place in order for anything remotely like medieval warfare
to exist. The issue is that, to a very great degree, equipment determines
tactics. The importance of this to the present discussion is that massed
cavalry charges with swords against a double-digit-level wizard are just
as suicidal and useless as they were against machine guns and tanks in the
World Wars. If moderate-to-high-level spellcasters are available in
military situations, the only armies that matter are those which can
survive their attacks and threaten them in turn -- that is, parties of
moderate-to-high-level adventurers, and high-HD monsters with good saves
and magical abilities. Wars would be conducted solely as D&D adventure
combats, with most efforts on both sides being concentrated on making and
defending against assassination attempts made with high-level spells.
That is a very different kind of world from the one I want to game in,
but it is the logically inevitable consequence of allowing a full-blown
D&D-type magic system to freely enter military engagements.
Therefore, something must be done.
If you limit regent wizards` effects on army units to just realm spells
like Summoning, Mass Destruction and Subversion, the game can work.
Anything beyond that, and it becomes progressively harder to avoid the
total obsolescence of conventional armies.
Ryan Caveney
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03-26-2003, 07:25 PM #17
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I'm with Ryan on this one. In the discussion on magicians and battle magic (in a different thread) I pointed out how overpowered battle magic is. Someone like the Sword Mage could easily take out Roesone's entire army on his own.
If the rules make something like that possible, logically, why would Roesone even bother maintaining an army?
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03-26-2003, 07:34 PM #18
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On Wed, 26 Mar 2003, Michael Romes wrote:
> That heavily restricts spellcasters and therefore I do not like it at all.
Did I suggest it for you? Nope, no, doesn`t look like it. If you don`t
like it, you don`t have to use it. Have a nice day.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu
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03-26-2003, 09:21 PM #19
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Ryan B. Caveney wrote:
>I wrote:
>
>>>>Thus each and every [major wizard] could... singlehandedly, trivially
>>>>take out the entire army of any (every!) realm in Anuire.
>>>>
>Dan McSorley wrote:
>
>>>The Haelynites and allied churches will not take part in battle against
>>>the faithful, so that takes out the other big source of battle magic,
>>>and leaves me with the historical battles I enjoy.
>>>
>
>On Wed, 26 Mar 2003, Michael Romes wrote:
>
>>You make spellcasters something comparable to ballistic nuclear
>>missiles in a balance of power which no one dares to break
>>
>
>Well, yes. In terms of overwhelming, irresistable, instantaneous
>destructive power, a spellcaster is exactly a tactical nuclear weapon.
>Given the way the D&D magic system works, there is no obstacle at all
>under standard rules to Rhuobhe Manslayer having *already* personally
>killed every single human in Cerilia not directly protected by a
>spellcaster of at least equal level. There would be no point in having a
>conventional army at all if practical battle magic was as easy to access
>as the "Fireball = R result" cards in the original rules, since even a
>small number of wizards of fairly moderate level could wipe out huge
>numbers of war card units in the blink of an eye, especially if you adopt
>the 3e magic item creation rules unmodified. A single Wand of Fireballs
>does FIFTY war card hits, which could annihilate the army of most of the
>realms in Cerilia with change left over. A standard 5th level wizard in
>vanilla 3e could make a bucket full of them.
>
You exaggerate a bit here. Wizards and Clerics are powerful with battle
spells. But they can´t singlehandedly defeat entire armys. Even without
the Draft 0.0 restrictions of having the approbiate feat, a skill which
is no class-skill and having access to a specially trained army unit to
support them I think not that wizards are unbalanced.
The reason is that IF you see it as normal that a wizard can use a
normal fireball to rout 100-200 peasants with pitchforks, then he can
use the same fireball to rout an army unit. The DMG describes armies as
consisting mostly out of commoners (levys?), warriors and only few
fighters of low levels. So if a wizard can take out low-level characters
in a normal adventure in D&D, because those low-level characters have
even with maxed first level hitpoints, no chance to survive his spell,
then he can do the same on the battlefield.
However he can´t do it as you describe with entire armies. Considering
the time it takes to produce magical items in Cerilia (was it weeks
instead of 3E core days?) and that a wizard regent has as any regent
other things to do than magical item creation, and considering the
raritiy of wizards then you will not have suddenly a dozen wizards
wielding fireballs and annihiliating the whole allied army of Boeruine,
Avanil and Ghoere ;-)
I would go so far as to say that it suffices to have the spellcasters
make a spellcraft check DC 15 for defensive casting to get their
battlespell off as requirement to cast it. If not casting defensively
they are pincushions if even 1st level warriors, but 100 of them take an
AoO at them. Protection from Arrows will not protect from such a hail of
arrows. And again: There are not such many magical items in Cerilia than
in other worlds. Even wizards will not have a dozen magical items, like
amulets of natural armour, rings of protection, cloaks of protection and
whatever. More likely they will have only a few, or even one powerful item.
>I really like spellcasters too, so I`m not happy with these severe
>restrictions Dan and I have suggested, but I do feel that something like
>them must be in place in order for anything remotely like medieval warfare
>to exist. The issue is that, to a very great degree, equipment determines
>tactics. The importance of this to the present discussion is that massed
>cavalry charges with swords against a double-digit-level wizard are just
>as suicidal and useless as they were against machine guns and tanks in the
>World Wars. If moderate-to-high-level spellcasters are available in
>military situations, the only armies that matter are those which can
>survive their attacks and threaten them in turn -- that is, parties of
>moderate-to-high-level adventurers, and high-HD monsters with good saves
>and magical abilities.
>
There are ways even for normal army units. How long does it take to cast
a battle spell? One full round? Then the wizard already can be
surrounded on three sides by cavalry units, can´t he? And any area
effect affects only 1 battlefield area, so the attacking army would
simply spread out (which it does anyway as the draft allows only 1 unit
per square). So the massdamage that a fireball does to a stack of 10
army units at once is no more.
bye
Michael Romes
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03-26-2003, 10:23 PM #20
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On Wed, 26 Mar 2003, Michael Romes wrote:
> I would go so far as to say that it suffices to have the spellcasters
> make a spellcraft check DC 15 for defensive casting to get their
> battlespell off as requirement to cast it. If not casting defensively
> they are pincushions if even 1st level warriors, but 100 of them take an
> AoO at them.
You can`t take an AoO with ranged weapons. They can ready an action, I
suppose, but then they`ll get whacked from the side by the army the wizard
is there to support. Not to mention most units don`t carry bows at all.
> Protection from Arrows will not protect from such a hail of arrows.
It might. If he`s 600 feet away (minimum range for a fireball), all enemy
archers have what, a -10 range penalty to hit? They`re only hitting on a
20. That`s 5 of them by averages, Protection from Arrows stops 10
points/spellcaster level, so minimum 50, he`s safe from at least one
volley, probably 2.
Invisibility is 2nd level and will protect him utterly. Improved Invis is
what, 3rd, so is Flight, and they`re even better. Shield is 1st. I`ve
played a sorceror in Dragonstar, where your average mook carries a gun or
laser that does 3d6 damage/hit or better, and you don`t worry about them
much once you hit 3rd level spells or so. Arrows are much less worrisome
than lasers :)
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu
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