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  1. #11
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    On Tue, 25 Mar 2003, Ariadne wrote:

    > I didn`t say I hate domain sheets, I only think they are a minor part.

    Whereas I think they are the primary part. Similarly, I don`t hate
    adventures -- but I don`t like them as much, so I don`t focus on them.

    > If you ONLY play with domain sheets tell me those things: How do
    > your players get XP and how long do they need to reach next level?

    They don`t have to. Level and XP are no longer strictly needed, except in
    determining the exact effects of certain realm spells (e.g., do you get
    goblin irregulars or stonecrown ogres from Summoning), and even that could
    be straightforwardly rewritten (e.g., different RP costs per unit type).
    There is no need for hp, THAC0, etc. if you never have to (there is no way
    to) fight a monster. In fact, the only "character sheet" you really
    require is the brief listing format from the region books: FAn; F5; Br,
    minor, 24; CG. Even that`s a bit much, since bloodline score and class
    alone determine regency collection; in a slightly variant rules set, no
    notion of character need intrude at all, since you can just say RP = DP
    and be done with it.

    Ignoring XP completely, you could assign all casters a fixed level, or let
    effective level be a function of the highest source/temple holding they
    have, or total thereof. Example of system one: use levels as printed in
    the books, and no one ever changes. Easy to use, but hard to figure out
    how to introduce completely new regents. Example of system two: if your
    highest source is a 7, then you cast realm spells as if you were 14th
    level. I think I like this way best, though it means wizards in thickly
    settled regions are even more screwed than before. Example of system
    three: if you have a total of 27 levels of temple holdings, then you cast
    realm spells as if you were 9th level. This tends to make biggest realms
    even more powerful, and thus leads to faster and less balanced games.

    For games that combine both domain actions and adventures, I have used a
    variety of tables which award XP for domain actions. In a particularly
    simple model I`ve used, in which level is tracked only for spellcasters,
    the way to gain levels is to spend RP on realm spells: in 3e language, I`d
    say every RP spent on a realm spell gives you 100 xp, so going from level
    N to level N+1 requires spending a total of 10(N+1) RP on realm spells.
    It`s also easy to award a fixed number (500?) per realm spell, to help out
    regents with smaller domains.

    In any of these systems, the exact proportionality constants are easy to
    tweak to taste. For example, the numbers for realm spell XP I`ve just
    presented are designed for moderately rapid advancement, and caster level
    equals twice holding level is inspired by max level of spell castable
    equals one-half caster level.


    Ryan Caveney

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  2. #12
    Site Moderator Ariadne's Avatar
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    Originally posted by ConjurerDragon

    To add to this I have to say that the only Birthright games I participate in are PBEMS - there are simply not enough players around my area (between Bonn and Koblenz in Germany) to meet once a week and play around a table.
    A pity... You realy miss things. Haven't you tried to find a group through web roll-play lists? Maybe try www.helden.de (I hope I remember it right). There must be a list of German roll players somewhere...

    Even the core DMG has a variant rule to gain XP for overcoming tasks not related to "kill orcs or other nastys". The old Birthright.Net site had even a webpage created by a fan with XP values for succeeding at domain actions.
    I know you may gain XP trough story goal (if you have solved a riddle for example)


    Originally posted by ryancaveney
    Level and XP are no longer strictly needed, except in determining the exact effects of certain realm spells (e.g., do you get goblin irregulars or stonecrown ogres from Summoning), and even that could be straightforwardly rewritten (e.g., different RP costs per unit type).
    Oh Yes? Haven't your clerics ever wanted to ask questions to their god? Haven't your wizards ever wanted to create magical items? Isn't it "cool" to cast a fireball, flamestrike or firestom into an enemy unit what partly destroyes it completely without risking damage to your own units? And, and, and...
    May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!

  3. #13
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    I wrote:

    > > Level and XP are no longer strictly needed,

    On Wed, 26 Mar 2003, Ariadne wrote:

    > Haven`t your clerics ever wanted to ask questions to their god?

    Sure. They ask me, and I tell them what impressions, if any, they
    receive. IMO, the results of communing with dieties are never
    particularly clear, and caster level really doesn`t have all that much to
    do with whether you can figure out what it`s supposed to mean.

    > Haven`t your wizards ever wanted to create magical items?

    With what purpose? If you never have to fight a monster, individual +3
    swords aren`t very interesting. Items useful in battle (a whole pile of
    scrolls of Cloudkill is actually the best buy I`ve yet found), and in fact
    anything else they like, can be created by the Consecrate Relic realm
    spell (which I`ve always made available to wizards), or homebrew versions
    of the same such as Starfox`s 1 RP = 5,000 gp of purchase price formula.

    > Isn`t it "cool" to cast a fireball, flamestrike or firestom into an
    > enemy unit what partly destroyes it completely without risking damage
    > to your own units?

    Cool, yes. Necessary, no. Which was precisely my point.

    In any case, the large-scale use of magic in battle (not specifically
    "battle magic" as per the BoM, mind you -- a few conventional fireball
    spells is plenty) renders mundane combat units entirely irrelevant. I
    would honestly prefer never to have spellcasters get involved in battle at
    all; when that doesn`t seem possible, I settle for just trying to minimize
    it. Aelies, Queen Isaelie, Torele Anviras, Caine, the Sword Mage, the
    Second Swamp Mage, the Eyeless One, the Wizard -- not to mention Rhuobhe
    or the Gorgon -- all can cast 5th level spells. Thus each and every one
    of them could easily make that pile of scrolls of Cloudkill, and thereby
    singlehandely, trivially take out the entire army of any (every!) realm in
    Anuire. Since I see really no way to balance it, I feel reduced largely
    to just pretending to ignore the problem, which I tend to justify as
    "every ruler has a court wizard, and they cancel each other out."

    The main idea is that everything you`ve mentioned is purely a flavor
    add-on. Furthermore, every one of them needs only an effective caster
    level, which as I have said is very easy to calculate directly from
    holding levels. Levels, XP, and everything else about any RPG system you
    like, D&D or no, can be amusing -- but all that baggage is utterly
    unnecessary to a purely domain level game. Sometimes I like to add that
    stuff, but sometimes all that overhead is a bigger cost than benefit.


    Ryan Caveney

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  4. #14
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    On Tue, 25 Mar 2003, Ryan B. Caveney wrote:
    > I would honestly prefer never to have spellcasters get involved in
    > battle at all; when that doesn`t seem possible, I settle for just
    > trying to minimize it. Aelies, Queen Isaelie, Torele Anviras, Caine,
    > the Sword Mage, the Second Swamp Mage, the Eyeless One, the Wizard --
    > not to mention Rhuobhe or the Gorgon -- all can cast 5th level spells.
    > Thus each and every one of them could easily make that pile of scrolls
    > of Cloudkill, and thereby singlehandely, trivially take out the entire
    > army of any (every!) realm in Anuire. Since I see really no way to
    > balance it, I feel reduced largely to just pretending to ignore the
    > problem, which I tend to justify as "every ruler has a court wizard,
    > and they cancel each other out."

    Read Sepulchrave`s story hour at enworld for some good examples of high
    level magic in battle. Here are some links, I`ll wait.

    Lady Despina`s Virtue
    http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread....s=&threadid=762
    (Be warned: only read the first post in this first thread, then move on to
    the second.)
    http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread....&threadid=10950

    The Heretic of Wyre
    http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread....&threadid=13733
    http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread....&threadid=18032

    The Rape of Morne
    http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread....&threadid=24127
    http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread....&threadid=43542

    Actually, don`t read it now, there`s well over a good sized novel there.
    :)

    But read it eventually, and you`ll see the damage a single 15th-ish level
    druid can do to an army, what a powerful wizard can do to even powerful
    creatures, and what an epic spellcaster can do to an entire city. And
    it`s a good story to boot.

    My original point here, besides being a big fanboy, is the story method
    Sep uses to restrain magic in battle in his world. All the wizards
    ascribe to an Injunction, that none of them will use magic in political
    matters (including war), on pain of eternal Imprisonment (the spell).
    This is enforced by the whim of the most powerful wizards in Wyre, which
    in the course of the story proves insufficient, so they move on to more
    powerful enforcement of the injunction.

    I`ve stolen this for my games in Cerilia- source holders and true wizards
    in general have an enforced agreement not to take part in battles.
    Magicians are somewhat beneath the radar, but between Aelies and a couple
    of other powerful wizards, it`s fairly well followed. Their exception is
    against the forces of awnsheghlien.

    The Haelynites and allied churches will not take part in battle against
    the faithful, so that takes out the other big source of battle magic, and
    leaves me with the historical battles I enjoy.
    --
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    Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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  5. #15
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    daniel mcsorley wrote:

    >On Tue, 25 Mar 2003, Ryan B. Caveney wrote:
    >
    >>I would honestly prefer never to have spellcasters get involved in
    >>battle at all; when that doesn`t seem possible, I settle for just
    >>trying to minimize it. Aelies, Queen Isaelie, Torele Anviras, Caine,
    >>the Sword Mage, the Second Swamp Mage, the Eyeless One, the Wizard --
    >>not to mention Rhuobhe or the Gorgon -- all can cast 5th level spells.
    >>Thus each and every one of them could easily make that pile of scrolls
    >>of Cloudkill, and thereby singlehandely, trivially take out the entire
    >>army of any (every!) realm in Anuire. Since I see really no way to
    >>balance it, I feel reduced largely to just pretending to ignore the
    >>problem, which I tend to justify as "every ruler has a court wizard,
    >>and they cancel each other out."
    >>
    >...
    >But read it eventually, and you`ll see the damage a single 15th-ish level
    >druid can do to an army, what a powerful wizard can do to even powerful
    >creatures, and what an epic spellcaster can do to an entire city. And
    >it`s a good story to boot.
    >
    >My original point here, besides being a big fanboy, is the story method
    >Sep uses to restrain magic in battle in his world. All the wizards
    >ascribe to an Injunction, that none of them will use magic in political
    >matters (including war), on pain of eternal Imprisonment (the spell).
    >This is enforced by the whim of the most powerful wizards in Wyre, which
    >in the course of the story proves insufficient, so they move on to more
    >powerful enforcement of the injunction.
    >
    >I`ve stolen this for my games in Cerilia- source holders and true wizards
    >in general have an enforced agreement not to take part in battles.
    >Magicians are somewhat beneath the radar, but between Aelies and a couple
    >of other powerful wizards, it`s fairly well followed. Their exception is
    >against the forces of awnsheghlien.
    >
    >The Haelynites and allied churches will not take part in battle against
    >the faithful, so that takes out the other big source of battle magic, and
    >leaves me with the historical battles I enjoy.
    >
    You make spellcasters something comparable to
    a) dragons in the computer game Bard´s Tale IV/Dragon Tales? where each
    city had a dragon who, if release in case of an attack would destroy
    utterly both the attacking army and the city
    B) ballistic nuclear missiles in a balance of power which no one dares
    to break

    That heavily restricts spellcasters and therefore I do not like it at all.
    bye
    Michael Romes

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  6. #16
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    I wrote:

    >>> Thus each and every [major wizard] could... singlehandedly, trivially
    >>> take out the entire army of any (every!) realm in Anuire.

    Dan McSorley wrote:

    >> The Haelynites and allied churches will not take part in battle against
    >> the faithful, so that takes out the other big source of battle magic,
    >> and leaves me with the historical battles I enjoy.

    On Wed, 26 Mar 2003, Michael Romes wrote:

    > You make spellcasters something comparable to ballistic nuclear
    > missiles in a balance of power which no one dares to break

    Well, yes. In terms of overwhelming, irresistable, instantaneous
    destructive power, a spellcaster is exactly a tactical nuclear weapon.

    Given the way the D&D magic system works, there is no obstacle at all
    under standard rules to Rhuobhe Manslayer having *already* personally
    killed every single human in Cerilia not directly protected by a
    spellcaster of at least equal level. There would be no point in having a
    conventional army at all if practical battle magic was as easy to access
    as the "Fireball = R result" cards in the original rules, since even a
    small number of wizards of fairly moderate level could wipe out huge
    numbers of war card units in the blink of an eye, especially if you adopt
    the 3e magic item creation rules unmodified. A single Wand of Fireballs
    does FIFTY war card hits, which could annihilate the army of most of the
    realms in Cerilia with change left over. A standard 5th level wizard in
    vanilla 3e could make a bucket full of them.

    Therefore, I need some way to change this in order to claim that Cerilia
    exists at all in its present form. Story restrictions like "well, he just
    hasn`t decided to, yet" don`t help much, because once somebody like the
    Gorgon or Rhuobhe or Llaeddra or Aelies or the Magian (all W15+) decides
    to do it, nothing could stop their conquest of the entire world except
    one-on-one confrontations with each other. Even then, it still rewrites
    the entire geopolitical structure of Cerilia almost overnight.

    > That heavily restricts spellcasters and therefore I do not like it at all.

    I really like spellcasters too, so I`m not happy with these severe
    restrictions Dan and I have suggested, but I do feel that something like
    them must be in place in order for anything remotely like medieval warfare
    to exist. The issue is that, to a very great degree, equipment determines
    tactics. The importance of this to the present discussion is that massed
    cavalry charges with swords against a double-digit-level wizard are just
    as suicidal and useless as they were against machine guns and tanks in the
    World Wars. If moderate-to-high-level spellcasters are available in
    military situations, the only armies that matter are those which can
    survive their attacks and threaten them in turn -- that is, parties of
    moderate-to-high-level adventurers, and high-HD monsters with good saves
    and magical abilities. Wars would be conducted solely as D&D adventure
    combats, with most efforts on both sides being concentrated on making and
    defending against assassination attempts made with high-level spells.
    That is a very different kind of world from the one I want to game in,
    but it is the logically inevitable consequence of allowing a full-blown
    D&D-type magic system to freely enter military engagements.

    Therefore, something must be done.

    If you limit regent wizards` effects on army units to just realm spells
    like Summoning, Mass Destruction and Subversion, the game can work.
    Anything beyond that, and it becomes progressively harder to avoid the
    total obsolescence of conventional armies.


    Ryan Caveney

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  7. #17
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    I'm with Ryan on this one. In the discussion on magicians and battle magic (in a different thread) I pointed out how overpowered battle magic is. Someone like the Sword Mage could easily take out Roesone's entire army on his own.

    If the rules make something like that possible, logically, why would Roesone even bother maintaining an army?

  8. #18
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    On Wed, 26 Mar 2003, Michael Romes wrote:
    > That heavily restricts spellcasters and therefore I do not like it at all.

    Did I suggest it for you? Nope, no, doesn`t look like it. If you don`t
    like it, you don`t have to use it. Have a nice day.
    --
    Communication is possible only between equals.
    Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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  9. #19
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    Ryan B. Caveney wrote:

    >I wrote:
    >
    >>>>Thus each and every [major wizard] could... singlehandedly, trivially
    >>>>take out the entire army of any (every!) realm in Anuire.
    >>>>
    >Dan McSorley wrote:
    >
    >>>The Haelynites and allied churches will not take part in battle against
    >>>the faithful, so that takes out the other big source of battle magic,
    >>>and leaves me with the historical battles I enjoy.
    >>>
    >
    >On Wed, 26 Mar 2003, Michael Romes wrote:
    >
    >>You make spellcasters something comparable to ballistic nuclear
    >>missiles in a balance of power which no one dares to break
    >>
    >
    >Well, yes. In terms of overwhelming, irresistable, instantaneous
    >destructive power, a spellcaster is exactly a tactical nuclear weapon.
    >Given the way the D&D magic system works, there is no obstacle at all
    >under standard rules to Rhuobhe Manslayer having *already* personally
    >killed every single human in Cerilia not directly protected by a
    >spellcaster of at least equal level. There would be no point in having a
    >conventional army at all if practical battle magic was as easy to access
    >as the "Fireball = R result" cards in the original rules, since even a
    >small number of wizards of fairly moderate level could wipe out huge
    >numbers of war card units in the blink of an eye, especially if you adopt
    >the 3e magic item creation rules unmodified. A single Wand of Fireballs
    >does FIFTY war card hits, which could annihilate the army of most of the
    >realms in Cerilia with change left over. A standard 5th level wizard in
    >vanilla 3e could make a bucket full of them.
    >
    You exaggerate a bit here. Wizards and Clerics are powerful with battle
    spells. But they can´t singlehandedly defeat entire armys. Even without
    the Draft 0.0 restrictions of having the approbiate feat, a skill which
    is no class-skill and having access to a specially trained army unit to
    support them I think not that wizards are unbalanced.

    The reason is that IF you see it as normal that a wizard can use a
    normal fireball to rout 100-200 peasants with pitchforks, then he can
    use the same fireball to rout an army unit. The DMG describes armies as
    consisting mostly out of commoners (levys?), warriors and only few
    fighters of low levels. So if a wizard can take out low-level characters
    in a normal adventure in D&D, because those low-level characters have
    even with maxed first level hitpoints, no chance to survive his spell,
    then he can do the same on the battlefield.

    However he can´t do it as you describe with entire armies. Considering
    the time it takes to produce magical items in Cerilia (was it weeks
    instead of 3E core days?) and that a wizard regent has as any regent
    other things to do than magical item creation, and considering the
    raritiy of wizards then you will not have suddenly a dozen wizards
    wielding fireballs and annihiliating the whole allied army of Boeruine,
    Avanil and Ghoere ;-)

    I would go so far as to say that it suffices to have the spellcasters
    make a spellcraft check DC 15 for defensive casting to get their
    battlespell off as requirement to cast it. If not casting defensively
    they are pincushions if even 1st level warriors, but 100 of them take an
    AoO at them. Protection from Arrows will not protect from such a hail of
    arrows. And again: There are not such many magical items in Cerilia than
    in other worlds. Even wizards will not have a dozen magical items, like
    amulets of natural armour, rings of protection, cloaks of protection and
    whatever. More likely they will have only a few, or even one powerful item.

    >I really like spellcasters too, so I`m not happy with these severe
    >restrictions Dan and I have suggested, but I do feel that something like
    >them must be in place in order for anything remotely like medieval warfare
    >to exist. The issue is that, to a very great degree, equipment determines
    >tactics. The importance of this to the present discussion is that massed
    >cavalry charges with swords against a double-digit-level wizard are just
    >as suicidal and useless as they were against machine guns and tanks in the
    >World Wars. If moderate-to-high-level spellcasters are available in
    >military situations, the only armies that matter are those which can
    >survive their attacks and threaten them in turn -- that is, parties of
    >moderate-to-high-level adventurers, and high-HD monsters with good saves
    >and magical abilities.
    >
    There are ways even for normal army units. How long does it take to cast
    a battle spell? One full round? Then the wizard already can be
    surrounded on three sides by cavalry units, can´t he? And any area
    effect affects only 1 battlefield area, so the attacking army would
    simply spread out (which it does anyway as the draft allows only 1 unit
    per square). So the massdamage that a fireball does to a stack of 10
    army units at once is no more.
    bye
    Michael Romes

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  10. #20
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    On Wed, 26 Mar 2003, Michael Romes wrote:
    > I would go so far as to say that it suffices to have the spellcasters
    > make a spellcraft check DC 15 for defensive casting to get their
    > battlespell off as requirement to cast it. If not casting defensively
    > they are pincushions if even 1st level warriors, but 100 of them take an
    > AoO at them.

    You can`t take an AoO with ranged weapons. They can ready an action, I
    suppose, but then they`ll get whacked from the side by the army the wizard
    is there to support. Not to mention most units don`t carry bows at all.

    > Protection from Arrows will not protect from such a hail of arrows.

    It might. If he`s 600 feet away (minimum range for a fireball), all enemy
    archers have what, a -10 range penalty to hit? They`re only hitting on a
    20. That`s 5 of them by averages, Protection from Arrows stops 10
    points/spellcaster level, so minimum 50, he`s safe from at least one
    volley, probably 2.

    Invisibility is 2nd level and will protect him utterly. Improved Invis is
    what, 3rd, so is Flight, and they`re even better. Shield is 1st. I`ve
    played a sorceror in Dragonstar, where your average mook carries a gun or
    laser that does 3d6 damage/hit or better, and you don`t worry about them
    much once you hit 3rd level spells or so. Arrows are much less worrisome
    than lasers :)
    --
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    Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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