Make Scion a class

[ecliptic]

bump

[Fizz]

Every time i try to view this link, or save the file directly to my machine and then open it, i get the following message:

"Directly downloading images is not permitted on the Netfirms FREE plan. If you are the owner of this site, either ensure that this image is embedded in a web page, or upgrade to one of the Netfirms premium plans. "

So, i can't comment until i can actually see the file. Until then, i remain very skeptical... :)

-Fizz

[ecliptic]

I have no other webspace. So *shrug* if you can't figure out how to right click and save. Not my problem.

[Doyle]

Sounds like you`re trying to download a protected page rather than a file.
Rather than rightclicking and selecting `save target as..`, follow the link
through one more step and then save it - failing that, or use a mirror.

BTW to download a `protected` image (I don`t know if it works for files),
bring the image up the screen, then use explorer to go to the `temporary
internet files` folder and copy it from there ;-)



HTH,

Doyle



-------Original Message-------



Date: Monday, 14 April 2003 05:46:11 AM

Fizz wrote:



Every time i try to view this link, or save the file directly to my machine
and then open it, i get the following message:



"Directly downloading images is not permitted on the Netfirms FREE plan. If
you are the owner of this site, either ensure that this image is embedded in
a web page, or upgrade to one of the Netfirms premium plans. "



So, i can`t comment until i can actually see the file. Until then, i remain
very skeptical... :)



-Fizz



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[Fizz]

Originally posted by ecliptic
I have no other webspace. So *shrug* if you can't figure out how to right click and save. Not my problem.

Did you miss the part where i said i tried downloading it directly? I know about right-clicking and saving. The resultant saved file gave the same error as just clicking on the file.

Doyle, your suggestion helped me to figure out how to get the file. You're right i think, something between here and there didn't like me accessing a protected page. But i managed to find the file stored in the cache. Maybe the server didn't like my browser (Opera). Go fig. Anyways i've got it and am reviewing it now. Thanks for the suggestion!

-Fizz

[ecliptic]

I'm in a grumpy mood. :P

[Fizz]

OK, had a look at the Scion class. My thoughts...

Taken by itself as a stand-alone class, it's fine. But there are several issues which i don't think fit in to Birthright very well.

First, the class is created from a reworking of the blood abilities system. If that's what people want, fine, but we must recongnize that modification as a substantial leap from original BR. In this class, as a scion you gain new powers by level, but limited by your Bloodline score. For most characters, only a level or two of this class would be worthwhile.

The class is created from a very regal-noble-kingship perspective. But not all scions in Birthright are wealthy, noble, or great leaders. There are numerous scions who have great powers, but are terrible leaders. There are scions who are paupers. So, the leadership and noble abilities don't make sense. It's forcing the class into something that is inconsistent with many BR characters. When a character becomes a scion, he doesn't suddenly become wealthy, noble, or a great leader.

The class is guaranteed to penalize certain classes more than others, meaning some classes will make better scions. For example, the skill list is irrelevant to what wizards and thieves need. Why does developing your blood abilities make you a good administrator, or diplomacer, or strategist? Likewise, why does a fighter become a poorer fighter (dropping his high BAB) while a wizard becomes a better fighter (improving from his poor BAB)?

This is different than the same issues from regular multiclassing because a blooded character doesn't have any class abilities one way or the other. Blood abilities have always been independent from anything class-related. But now they're intertwined with the class. So some classes are going to be better candidates for multiclassing into a Scion than others.

Again- the class is too focused on the premise that scions are noble leaders. Most are not.

Scions, imo, are too varied to be forced into a single class. Take away the blood abilities, expand the skill list and you've got a noble class. A noble class works well in BR. But not all nobles are scions, just like not all scions are nobles.

IMC, i'm used feats to represent blood abilities. It seems to work well, allowing the character to advance his blood abilities without compromising his class. And since he expends feats to gain them, everyone stays fairly balanced.

-Fizz

[ecliptic]

Feats are already a precious thing. Hell I have been thinking about upping the number of feats my player's characters get because of how limited they are. Not to mention a feat that grants blood abilities is over powered for what feats normally can add.


Another alternative I was thinking is do a feat/skill combination. Where the higher your skill the more access to blood abilities you get. A feat required to take the skill.

[ryancaveney]

On Mon, 14 Apr 2003, Fizz wrote:

> There are numerous scions who have great powers, but are terrible
> leaders. There are scions who are paupers. So, the leadership and
> noble abilities don`t make sense. It`s forcing the class into
> something that is inconsistent with many BR characters.
>
> When a character becomes a scion, he doesn`t suddenly become wealthy,
> noble, or a great leader. The class is too focused on the premise that
> scions are noble leaders. Most are not. Scions, imo, are too varied
> to be forced into a single class.

Very well put. I agree -- making bloodedness into a class requires that
far too many things be far too strictly defined; these aspects (BAB,
skills, etc.) are best left up to other parts of the overall character
design. Though some complain about it, this is in fact one of the
greatest strengths of the original system: that it is completely
independently tacked on, with no strong ties to any of the usual aspects
of character power and growth.

Having just one number which is assigned at birth and remains unchanged
except by bloodtheft, or events at the realm level is much simpler, and
thus avoids all the problems you discuss above.

The old system ain`t broke, so I continue to think we shouldn`t try to
"fix" it, lest in so doing we make things much worse.


Ryan Caveney

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[irdeggman]

I agree with the comments on the proposed scion class. I don't see a reason for a full 20 level class that mostly duplicates a noble. It would force a player to give up on being a different class (e.g., fighter) in order to be a scion.

I came up with a 5 level one to allow an ECL'd scion to play in a first level campaign (ala Savage Species). The progression becomes optional, if a player wishes to gain the increase benefits of a higher bloodline (i.e., the ECL stuff) then he need to take a level of the scion class in lieu of his "normal" class. But by compressing the benefits into a 5 level maximum, which most players would only take up to 3 levels in anyway, it becomes highly manageable.

Ryan I have to disagree, the original system was broke and needed to be fixed. The blood ability progression tables were pretty much obviously placed in the wrong order with the 29-35 range having a 50% chance of not gaining a blood ability while the 11-19 range only had a 15% chance.

http://www.tuarhievel.org/Scion%20Class%20...r%20Posting.doc
:)