Make Scion a class

[irdeggman]

Also the "rules" for prestige classes say that a character shouldn't be eligible until 4th or 5th character level which makes for another sticky wicket.:)

[DanMcSorley]

>No system can be all things to all people, of course. Though I disagree
>with those posters who think that bloodline as an ability score or
>character somehow dilutes the campaign setting.

I don't know about 'diluting' the setting, but as it stands now, the implementation, with multipliers and such, stinks.

[ConjurerDragon]

irdeggman wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1472
>
> irdeggman wrote:
> Also the "rules" for prestige classes say that a character shouldn`t be eligible until 4th or 5th character level which makes for another sticky wicket.:)
>
Character Level or character level + ECL for gaining the bloodline and
abilitys? Then a great line would qualify for that from the first level
on, or not?
bye
Michael Romes

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[Peter Lubke]

try not to take it too seriously, (It`s just a game) (or a game within a
game) (or ..)


On Tue, 2003-03-25 at 21:33, irdeggman wrote:

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irdeggman wrote:

Originally posted by Peter Lubke


On Tue, 2003-03-25 at 02:34, Michael Romes wrote:

Peter Lubke wrote:

That is not totally logical. You can´t use your class abilitys either
until you have reached the starting age of the PHB,
so why not simply say that bloodabilitys develop not before that age as
well?

Pg 39 of the BRCS -playtest
"For most characters bloodline abilities generally first manifest at
puberty and remain constant throughout their life.":)


if maybe whatever, can I, who when where - I suppose yes no , wait okay
maybe. I feel that, being partly right, okay partly wrong, alright make
that mostly wrong ... stop picking on me .. all right yes, well, perhaps
we could have a rule, well not a rule per se, perhaps a guideline, no no
not a guideline nothing formal just an idea really perhaps it could be a
suggestion, with of course the full weight of law, but couched of course
not in absolute terms, no let`s make it ....

Let`s use "most" and "generally" a lot, and cover part of the case, but
... ummm help? ... we pretty sure we are on track but .... haven`t
perhaps thought it through ...... yeah, look maybe .....

For this quote you want recognition? C`mon, show me the money. I know
I`m being way harsh, but you did stick it out there.

Sure, I understand you had a lot to look at. And you at least
superficially looked at bloodlines. But please don`t raise issues like
you really looked at it - because it`s a very weak statement that you
made, as if you had no consensus or no discussion or both. There`s no
follow through, no consequences, nada. The decision to develop in camera
will haunt you at the very least, (if it doesn`t destroy your efforts
outright - which is my each-way bet).

But for more specific criticism:

"bloodline abilities" - you want to explain that? Does it mean you can`t
bloodtheft them before then? Does it mean that they don`t apply to
domain RP calculations before then? Does it mean that, their bloodline
powers suddenly (in the space of microseconds) spring full-blown into
effect?

See, in the net discussion we have some context that develops over time
- even if some of it gets lost. In a rulebook you don`t have such
luxury. Especially if you publish (even a draft) without supporting
argument, either in the form of notes or discussion. This leads to the
unenviable position of being in defense of the indefensible, you (the
team) have by your original position abdicated your right to participate
as a protagonist in any subsequent discussion. Personally, I feel for
you as a project manager, but understand and could have (did) predict
your situation. That`s not going to stop me chopping down weak defense
however.

BTW, the publishing of those guidelines was a good (if not great) idea.
(Was that you? - I forget, anyway) Of course, publishing them six months
ago would have been almost sheer genius (or good stock standard
information management as part of a standard project plan).

[irdeggman]

You don't bloodtheft a blood ability. You bloodtheft a bloodline and perhaps the result will yield an ability gained. The mechanics are a little different, but I get your point.

Originally in the BRCS-playtest there were words about a sudden trauma could manifest a blood ability prior to puberty but was cut for length and simplicity. I think that bloodtheft would count as a trauma effect. Also bloodmarks were going to be listed as the single exception to a blood ability not being manifested until puberty, but was cut because it was thought it would have added too much confusion.:)

[Shade]

Originally posted by geeman



My opinion is that the scion as a character
class is rather clunky. It`s a blunt tool for portraying a 3e version of
the 2e system. Bloodline as an ability score is just as clunky, but with
it`s rough edges set at different--but no less dramatic--angles.

In the final analysis I
think a system that mimics the original as closely as possible, but takes
advantage of certain D20 products is the best option.

Gary

I agree with both of these statements.

irdeggman, you mentioned that you wanted to see a working system in 3 weeks - what exactly do you need in the "system"? You mentioned that we don't need to bother with conversions of blood abilities.

[irdeggman]

This was what I put out:

All right, it is time to move to the next step. We need a write up of the other versions proposed for determining blood ability score.

The proposals need to be complete in that they stand on their own and don’t have any missing gaps. Proposals that are prefaced by "I was thinking that something like this could work" or "how about this for an idea" are counterproductive at this point. The proposals need to be capable of being used in both a random generation method system and a non-random generated system, similar to a point-buy. If a proposed system can’t work in both systems then it won’t be considered. Why am I taking this stance? Because there has been a lot of people expressing their opinions that they want one or the other type of system and hence both must be supported in any "official" document. The proposed system should also include a means of gaining blood abilities. This must also be compatible with a random and a player’s choice system for the same reasons as above. Note that the system existing in the 2nd edition rule set is not compatible with a non-random generated system as written.

Timeline: 3 weeks from today. If you need (or want) to you can e-mail them to me (irdeggman@cox.net) and I will do a “quickie” edit and rough formatting – give me about a week or so, depending on how much work there is to do. I will arrange to get them downloadable, if necessary, so that people can review them. We will then look them over, discuss for around 2 weeks and then vote on which system to choose and proceed from there.

The reason I am pushing this is that if we don’t have any deadlines then nothing will get accomplished (thanks Travis). The list and net site have been hosting discussions on how to do things for around 2 years so far and I have spent the last year working real hard trying to get something out to discuss in the hopes of being able to produce an "official" product. Playtime is over folks it’s now time to put our noses to the grindstone and work towards getting that "official" product completed.


I added that a rewrite of the blood abilites shouldn't be done unless it is an essential part of the bloodline score write up. We can visit the specific blood abilities after we nail down how to quantify the bloodline score issue. I don't want to diffuse the first topic with one that doesn't need to be addressed quite yet.

Does this answer your question Shade? If not I'll anwser anything else I can if you ask me.([_]

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by ConjurerDragon


irdeggman wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1472
>
> irdeggman wrote:
> Also the "rules" for prestige classes say that a character shouldn`t be eligible until 4th or 5th character level which makes for another sticky wicket.:)
>
Character Level or character level + ECL for gaining the bloodline and
abilitys? Then a great line would qualify for that from the first level
on, or not?
bye
Michael Romes

I thought the point of having a scion class (or prestige class) was to do away with the ECLs?

[Peter Lubke]

On Thu, 2003-03-27 at 07:56, irdeggman wrote:
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irdeggman wrote:

Originally posted by ConjurerDragon


I thought the point of having a scion class (or prestige class) was to do
away with the ECLs?

Not so for a template based approach however. And a full-blown Scion
class would be more work than a template, as well as being quite
difficult. So, alternatives may have to work with blood abilities too.

From a character adventuring game point of view, only the blood
abilities are important to determine balance/rating.

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[ecliptic]

Sorry I haven't been around to reply and such. The war and all.

So what you people are saying by making the Scion a class BR would lose its flair? So to you being unbalanced and complicated is 'flair'?

Sorry to those who couldn't read the document.

Here it is in .doc

http://ecliptic.netfirms.com/Scion.doc
(right click save)
and the .rtf again

http://ecliptic.netfirms.com/Scion.rtf
(right click save)
and for those who can't see either, you get to see the crappy .txt file :)

http://ecliptic.netfirms.com/Scion.txt
(right click save)