Make Scion a class

[ConjurerDragon]

Peter Lubke wrote:

>On Mon, 2003-03-24 at 03:43, Fizz wrote:
>
> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1472
>Fizz wrote:
> I agree that a Scion class doesn`t make sense.
> Characters advance in a class by choice. Blood abilities, indeed one`s
> bloodline, don`t improve through regular training, practice and
> experience that is associated with a class. Forcing a scion to advance
> either in his regular class or a scion class doesn`t make sense.
>
>Fizz,
>Your arguments are all based on false premise.
>
>Just because someone has put forward a class where you don`t advance by
>choice doesn`t make the idea bad -- just the example put forward. Yes,
>you should advance by choice - you should choose to develop your blood
>abilities from nothing to their full potential through training or
>better yet experience. But that`s an issue you (and I) have with that
>particular implementation of a Scion class.
>Just because in 2e the blood abilities were fully there at full strength
>does not mean that it need be so with a Scion class. Maybe the potential
>is there. In fact it is an absurd position to take that they are fully
>there, completely in control in a new-born child. Of course they have to
>be learned.
>
That is not totally logical. You can´t use your class abilitys either
until you have reached the starting age of the PHB,
so why not simply say that bloodabilitys develop not before that age as
well?

That prevents childhood murder and breeding programs of evil characters
to commit bloodtheft - and it follows the description of the
bloodabilitys of Michael Roele in Iron Throne, where he did not develop
his bloodabilitys before he came to age.

>A Scion class would solve most of the ECL issues being bandied around
>too. As a Scion advances in level, the number and quality of his/her
>blood abilities would also likewise rise. Most (no make that ALL)
>schemes I`ve seen so far do not allow for a starting blooded character
>to be rated as a level one character, yet logically, they must pass
>through this point at some stage -- and at that point they are valid
>adventuring characters. It appears to me that the vocal part of this
>group are only concerned about character levels between 10 and 20, and
>care nothing for balance over the ranks 1 through 5.
>
Which are more likely to exist in Cerilia than characters of levels
above 10, you´re right.
bye
Michael Romes

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[ConjurerDragon]

oximoron wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1472
>
> oximoron wrote:
> I thought that the idea here was to convert Birthright into its 3E equivelent as third edition takes a completly diffrent approach to classes than 2E and I belive it should be handled with templates and should be based on bloodline strength rather than how high a stat is. Why should it be like that becouse the bloodline strengt is suppposed to indicate how poweful bloodline powers are.
>It is also extremly rare to see a 1st level charecter with extremely high bloodline score and those charecters that do are most likely dead from the varius people that want to commit bloodtheft on the person if not that then he is overly protected from harm and lives in a sheltered enviroment
>
Which could very fast happen, if e.g. Darian Avan or Aeric Boeruine
suddenly die at the hands of the Manslayer or through other means and a
son as a character of level 1 inherits the throne.
bye
Michael Romes

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[Peter Lubke]

On Tue, 2003-03-25 at 02:34, Michael Romes wrote:

Peter Lubke wrote:

>On Mon, 2003-03-24 at 03:43, Fizz wrote:
>
> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1472
>Fizz wrote:
> I agree that a Scion class doesn`t make sense.
> Characters advance in a class by choice. Blood abilities, indeed one`s
> bloodline, don`t improve through regular training, practice and
> experience that is associated with a class. Forcing a scion to advance
> either in his regular class or a scion class doesn`t make sense.
>
>Fizz,
>Your arguments are all based on false premise.
>
>Just because someone has put forward a class where you don`t advance by
>choice doesn`t make the idea bad -- just the example put forward. Yes,
>you should advance by choice - you should choose to develop your blood
>abilities from nothing to their full potential through training or
>better yet experience. But that`s an issue you (and I) have with that
>particular implementation of a Scion class.
>Just because in 2e the blood abilities were fully there at full strength
>does not mean that it need be so with a Scion class. Maybe the potential
>is there. In fact it is an absurd position to take that they are fully
>there, completely in control in a new-born child. Of course they have to
>be learned.
>
That is not totally logical. You can´t use your class abilitys either
until you have reached the starting age of the PHB,
so why not simply say that bloodabilitys develop not before that age as
well?

I do. At least they start to develop then. But not a full-blown Great
ability. I should state that I rather like the idea of a template more
and more.


That prevents childhood murder and breeding programs of evil characters
to commit bloodtheft - and it follows the description of the
bloodabilitys of Michael Roele in Iron Throne, where he did not develop
his bloodabilitys before he came to age.

yes. Unless they are very patient - and long-lived. Still possible but
less likely. I do not allow a character with a higher bloodline score to
steal any bloodline from a lesser scion. That sort of limits the
bloodtheft opportunities in a self-regulating way.


>A Scion class would solve most of the ECL issues being bandied around
>too. As a Scion advances in level, the number and quality of his/her
>blood abilities would also likewise rise. Most (no make that ALL)
>schemes I`ve seen so far do not allow for a starting blooded character
>to be rated as a level one character, yet logically, they must pass
>through this point at some stage -- and at that point they are valid
>adventuring characters. It appears to me that the vocal part of this
>group are only concerned about character levels between 10 and 20, and
>care nothing for balance over the ranks 1 through 5.
>
Which are more likely to exist in Cerilia than characters of levels
above 10, you´re right.
bye
Michael Romes

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[Peter Lubke]

On Mon, 2003-03-24 at 15:14, Fizz wrote:

This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
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Fizz wrote:

Originally posted by Peter Lubke

On Mon, 2003-03-24 at 03:43, Fizz wrote:

Maybe the potential is there. In fact it is an absurd position to take
that they are fully there, completely in control in a new-born child. Of
course they have to be learned.

That`s a perfectly legitimate point, and i do understand it. Learning how
to control blood powers is a mechanic that i`d like to see implemented. A
scion class would make that easy.

However, i`m not convinced blood abilities alone can make a workable class.
Certainly not as a single class. That is, every scion would need be a
multiclass scion/____, because blood abilities are limited by your
bloodline score. Once you`ve reached your limit, that`s it, (unless you
increase your bloodline substantially).

If you limit a Scion class character by the 2e distribution of blood
abilities, then yes.
But, if a Scion classed character is limited by their level of Scion
instead - it`s a different ballgame.

In effect, it would be a class
that is limited in his advancement by his bloodline score.

Classes limited or constrained by other attributes are pretty standard -
usually minimum values of some ability e.g. magic-users needed an 12
intelligence to cast 6th level spells.

And even so, can advancing a level in a Scion class really provide sufficient
benefits worthy of a regular core class?

Compare a blood ability with a spell and you`ll see that blood abilities
usually are quite powerful. They are usable at will (without
memorization) or are turned on at all times. Sure, there`s not that many
of them compared to spells - who says that won`t change? Given that, the
combat abilities used to round out the class would be adjusted to make
it balance with a core class. So yes, at least until you get to extreme
levels - a 20th level Scion could have 5 great abilities for example.

What happens when you advance?

You gain the knowledge or use of extra or enhanced blood abilities. As
per other classes your combat experience and ability improves etc.

How would you distribute abilities?

By advancement in class. Advancement would be limited by bloodline
strength - with bloodline score having no input to the process
whatsoever. Bloodline score remains a domain mechanic, while strength
(taint, minor, major, great) determines the highest level of achievement
in the Scion class.




I think it`s too much work for too little payoff.

I did say I thought it would be a lot of work :-) but payoff is another
matter.


I realize balance is an important issue here. That`s a cornerstone of 3E.
One method is to provide blood abilities and apply an EL to the character.
Another option, which i think works well, is to make blood abilities into
feats.

Blood abilities as feats have worked well in the few playtests i`ve done.
A character can only take one as a regular character feat (one provided at
1st or every level divisible by 3). That way, classes with bonus feats
(ie fighters) don`t have an edge over others. This provides the learning
curve that you like, Peter, (i like the learning curve idea too) and it
maintains balance because the character has to give up something (a regular
feat) to gain the ability. Blood ability feats have prerequisites of blood
scores and derivations, of course, plus others if they`re particularly
powerful.

I`ve found it works well in my campaign, anyways. So, that`s my solution
without using a class... :)

You are right. I`m not saying that feats won`t work. I was just
defending that class will too. And provide other potential benefits. I
think almost anything is preferable to an extra ability/attribute score.

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[Fizz]

Originally posted by Peter Lubke

Classes limited or constrained by other attributes are pretty standard -
usually minimum values of some ability e.g. magic-users needed an 12
intelligence to cast 6th level spells.

Well, in 3E, you'd need an Int 16 to cast 6th level spells. But, even if you don't have that, your abilities improve in other ways- more spells per day, more metamagic feats, etc, which don't depend on ability scores. Could there be a similar mechanic for the Scion? I don't see how since it's tied to bloodlines.

Unless you have a very very high bloodline score, you'll run out of blood `class' abilities in just a few levels. I don't think a single-class scion would ever be playable.

By advancement in class. Advancement would be limited by bloodline
strength - with bloodline score having no input to the process
whatsoever. Bloodline score remains a domain mechanic, while strength
(taint, minor, major, great) determines the highest level of achievement
in the Scion class.

Actually, what i was referring to were the basics of the class. Would it have a high BAB? Or low BAB? Skill points? Class skills? Hit die? Saves? Etc etc. Somewhere in the mix, i think one class would be giving up more than another in order to pursue his blood abilities.

And how do you balance the class with itself? For example, a character with a tainted bloodline might be capable of one measly power. He'd need to take a level of Scion to get it. But a character with a minor bloodline could have a more potent ability. He has to take a level of Scion too. Both have a level of Scion, but one is more potent than the other. And what of the rare Scion who is lucky to gain a single powerful blood ability? Would you make him take multiple levels of Scion to gain it?

Unless you completely want to rework how blood abilities are gained and developed, (every ability would need to have tainted, minor, major and great versions) i don't see how you could avoid some characters gaining more from a level of Scion than another.

You are right. I`m not saying that feats won`t work. I was just
defending that class will too. And provide other potential benefits. I
think almost anything is preferable to an extra ability/attribute score.

I understand your points. I agree it probably could be done as a class if you rework how bloodlines are gained. Not sure i'd want to do all that... :)

-Fizz

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Peter Lubke


On Tue, 2003-03-25 at 02:34, Michael Romes wrote:

Peter Lubke wrote:

That is not totally logical. You can´t use your class abilitys either
until you have reached the starting age of the PHB,
so why not simply say that bloodabilitys develop not before that age as
well?

Pg 39 of the BRCS -playtest
"For most characters bloodline abilities generally first manifest at puberty and remain constant throughout their life.":)

[Ariadne]

Originally posted by Peter Lubke

You say "completely different", but don`t seem to really mean it. It`s just as valid to say that the potential for bloodline powers depends on bloodline score or strength. Luke Skywalker wasn`t born a Jedi - just born with the potential

With the exeption that "Jedi" is something like a psion and that's a class. A psion is a potential as well as sorcerer, but a bloodline is indeed something completely different...

By the way (not your comment if I'm right): Every scion was 1st level at first, even every hero or anti-hero. The Gorgon wasn't born with 40 HD, he earned them (but he wouldn't be as powerful as he is today if he had "wasted" levels or feats as "scion"). Every character starts at 1st level, but this needn't to stay so...

[ConjurerDragon]

Ariadne wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1472
>Ariadne wrote:
>

Originally posted by Peter Lubke
>You say "completely different", but don`t seem to really mean it. It`s just as valid to say that the potential for bloodline powers depends on bloodline score or strength. Luke Skywalker wasn`t born a Jedi - just born with the potential

>With the exeption that "Jedi" is something like a psion and that`s a class. A psion is a potential as well as sorcerer, but a bloodline is indeed something completely different...
>By the way (not your comment if I`m right): Every scion was 1st level at first, even every hero or anti-hero. The Gorgon wasn`t born with 40 HD, he earned them (but he wouldn`t be as powerful as he is today if he had "wasted" levels or feats as "scion"). Every character starts at 1st level, but this needn`t to stay so...
>
I do not tend to either direction of having the mechanic as class or
not, but if it should be made a class, then
I see it more as a prestige class with the single requirement of having
a bloodline and in addition to the benefits of bloodabilitys dependant
on bloodline strenght you have all the stuff from the normal class.

Like e.g. the Alienist from Tome&Blood: He gains spells per day as if he
gained a level in the spellcasting class he had before becoming an
Alienist - so would the scion advance in his former class (and receiving
HD and abilitys according to that class) while adding a level of Scion.

To have a scion class completely on it´s own is not possible: If you
make it have D4 hitpoints it is a waste for fighters, if you have it
gain bloodabilitys - but not based on class levels but on bloodline
strength, but no spells it´s a waste for spellcasters.

And considering that most Birthright campaigns tend to have lower
character levels than Forgotten Realms and epic levels are most times
out of question most characters simply can´t afford to take one or more
levels of scion instead of taking levels in Fighter, Rogue, Sorceor or
whatever.

And having "scion class levels" in addition to the normal class levels
but by aquireing bloodline points instead of XP and indepandant of the
normal class advancements means nothing else than that the scion class
is no class in the 3E sense, but an add-on to the existing class of the
character.
bye
Michael Romes

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[geeman]

At 06:50 PM 3/25/2003 +0100, Michael Romes wrote:

>And having "scion class levels" in addition to the normal class levels
>but by aquireing bloodline points instead of XP and indepandant of the
>normal class advancements means nothing else than that the scion class
>is no class in the 3E sense, but an add-on to the existing class of the
>character.

I think that`s a fair assessment, but it`s kind of the case for all
bloodline systems isn`t it? They are all essentially an add-on to the
existing class of the character. The question is, which is the best
option? There`s a large personal esthetic component involved in such
decision making, of course. My opinion is that the scion as a character
class is rather clunky. It`s a blunt tool for portraying a 3e version of
the 2e system. Bloodline as an ability score is just as clunky, but with
it`s rough edges set at different--but no less dramatic--angles. That
doesn`t mean, however, that they can`t work. I`ve tested both, and they
both work OK. My personal preferences is for class over ability score,
because the balancing factors and overall function of bloodline as a class
fits more closely into the system of EL, ECL and CR. Also, by making it a
class one can introduce new things like bloodline skills, some of which are
really cool. I`m still trying to figure out how to incorporate them into a
non-class system of bloodline.

Bloodline components being represented by templates strikes me as a concept
that has been supplanted by later D20 products. Savage Species has rules
and examples of several templates turned into "monster classes" which can
work pretty well on any template. It`s an excellent idea and system,
despite it needing a little tweaking here and there IMO (what else is
new?) It does, however, make the transition from template to character
class pretty easy. Templates are, in effect, the "last level" of a class,
so the argument that bloodlines should be reflected by templates in most
significant ways equates to the bloodline as character class.

No system can be all things to all people, of course. Though I disagree
with those posters who think that bloodline as an ability score or
character somehow dilutes the campaign setting . In the final analysis I
think a system that mimics the original as closely as possible, but takes
advantage of certain D20 products is the best option.

Gary

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[Ariadne]

Originally posted by PeterLubke

I should state that I rather like the idea of a template more and more.

Clap, clap, clap...

Originally posted by ConjurerDragon

Like e.g. the Alienist from Tome&Blood: He gains spells per day as if he gained a level in the spellcasting class he had before becoming an Alienist - so would the scion advance in his former class (and receiving HD and abilitys according to that class) while adding a level of Scion.

Your idea is good, but making it a prestige class would mean he STILL looses some things (O.K. he don't advance in some). All spellcaster PrC's have similar descriptions to these:

A ... continues advancing in divine spellcasting ability. When a new ... level is gained, the character gains new ... spells per day as if she has also gained a level in the .... spellcasting class, she belonged to, before adding the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit of the previous class (improved chance of turning undead, increased benefit from laying on hands, and so on). If the character had more than one ... spellcasting class, she must decide which class to assign each level of the ...

This means he advances in spellcasting ability but NOT in another (turning undead, new metamagic feats etc.). You actually gave a description about a TEMPLATE. You HAVE something (blood abilities or whatever), ADVANCES in it AND in your regulary class...