Make Scion a class

[Ariadne]

The scion CAN'T be a class. If you want to create 3rd Edition rules (like WotC) it makes absolutely no sense to create a CLASS for scions.

The scion MUST be a template (same as undead [like Lich or vampire], half-dragon, half-celestial or half-elemental). Otherwise you can't create any race with this adjustment. Monsters still might be blooded, but have only HD, no levels. Those are removed with the "create a scion race" tactic.

A SCION CAN'T BE A CLASS. This would violate BR flair...

[Fizz]

I agree that a Scion class doesn't make sense. Characters advance in a class by choice. Blood abilities, indeed one's bloodline, don't improve through regular training, practice and experience that is associated with a class. Forcing a scion to advance either in his regular class or a scion class doesn't make sense.

-Fizz

[irdeggman]

Ecliptic, I can't read the file. When I try to open it directly my anti virus program detects an executable file imbedded and shuts down. When I save as and open it the text runs together , no tab breaks, so that I can't make any sense out of the text.:)

[Peter Lubke]

On Mon, 2003-03-24 at 03:43, Fizz wrote:

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Fizz wrote:
I agree that a Scion class doesn`t make sense.
Characters advance in a class by choice. Blood abilities, indeed one`s
bloodline, don`t improve through regular training, practice and
experience that is associated with a class. Forcing a scion to advance
either in his regular class or a scion class doesn`t make sense.

Fizz,
Your arguments are all based on false premise.

Just because someone has put forward a class where you don`t advance by
choice doesn`t make the idea bad -- just the example put forward. Yes,
you should advance by choice - you should choose to develop your blood
abilities from nothing to their full potential through training or
better yet experience. But that`s an issue you (and I) have with that
particular implementation of a Scion class.
Just because in 2e the blood abilities were fully there at full strength
does not mean that it need be so with a Scion class. Maybe the potential
is there. In fact it is an absurd position to take that they are fully
there, completely in control in a new-born child. Of course they have to
be learned.

I will agree that I haven`t seen a Scion class that lives up to being a
worthy alternative. But I also hold the position that, if done well, a
class is the best of all the alternatives so far.

A Scion class makes the most sense. But it is also the most difficult
conversion to make. All the blood abilities have to be graded in some
way as a start. It is also going to be a large change - quite different
from 2e Birthright. Having the blood abilities develop should have been
a huge beacon to the 3e converts out there -- after all character
development is one of the cornerstones of 3e. Full-blown but fixed
abilities is a 2e norm.

A Scion class would solve most of the ECL issues being bandied around
too. As a Scion advances in level, the number and quality of his/her
blood abilities would also likewise rise. Most (no make that ALL)
schemes I`ve seen so far do not allow for a starting blooded character
to be rated as a level one character, yet logically, they must pass
through this point at some stage -- and at that point they are valid
adventuring characters. It appears to me that the vocal part of this
group are only concerned about character levels between 10 and 20, and
care nothing for balance over the ranks 1 through 5.

As for `flavor` of BR, (not your argument I know), that`s complete
misdirection (i.e. bulls**t). A red herring thrown out by someone with
no real argument. BR has Wizards who are required to be blooded. BR has
magicians who are required to be human. Bloodlines are well-known,
characters with bloodlines are, while not common, not feared but rather
revered. A character that with a bloodline that had blood abilities
would in most places in Cerilia be highly regarded by the populace, even
where wizards are feared. To say that a class based on such a character
is not in the flavor of Birthright - is (let`s be honest) not only not
true, but the worst kind of hypocrisy, and total nonsense.

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[oximoron]

I thought that the idea here was to convert Birthright into its 3E equivelent as third edition takes a completly diffrent approach to classes than 2E and I belive it should be handled with templates and should be based on bloodline strength rather than how high a stat is. Why should it be like that becouse the bloodline strengt is suppposed to indicate how poweful bloodline powers are.

It is also extremly rare to see a 1st level charecter with extremely high bloodline score and those charecters that do are most likely dead from the varius people that want to commit bloodtheft on the person if not that then he is overly protected from harm and lives in a sheltered enviroment

As a stat the bloodline should not be based on how high it is couse most DM´s make players really work for those bloodline points and giving diffrent ECL´s based on based on bloodline points would be like giving ECL based on magical items that players carry around.

The only problem I see for templates is the 1st level group and how an ECL affects them since ECL on a first level group would have more than 1 effective level I guess the DM´s in each campaign should deal with that as they see fit.

As a sidenote just to mark my opinion on Scion as a class, I am strongly opposed to the idea

[Fizz]

Originally posted by Peter Lubke

On Mon, 2003-03-24 at 03:43, Fizz wrote:

Maybe the potential is there. In fact it is an absurd position to take that they are fully
there, completely in control in a new-born child. Of course they have to be learned.

That's a perfectly legitimate point, and i do understand it. Learning how to control blood powers is a mechanic that i'd like to see implemented. A scion class would make that easy.

However, i'm not convinced blood abilities alone can make a workable class. Certainly not as a single class. That is, every scion would need be a multiclass scion/____, because blood abilities are limited by your bloodline score. Once you've reached your limit, that's it, (unless you increase your bloodline substantially). In effect, it would be a class that is limited in his advancement by his bloodline score. And even so, can advancing a level in a Scion class really provide sufficient benefits worthy of a regular core class? What happens when you advance? How would you distribute abilities?

I think it's too much work for too little payoff.

I realize balance is an important issue here. That's a cornerstone of 3E. One method is to provide blood abilities and apply an EL to the character. Another option, which i think works well, is to make blood abilities into feats.

Blood abilities as feats have worked well in the few playtests i've done. A character can only take one as a regular character feat (one provided at 1st or every level divisible by 3). That way, classes with bonus feats (ie fighters) don't have an edge over others. This provides the learning curve that you like, Peter, (i like the learning curve idea too) and it maintains balance because the character has to give up something (a regular feat) to gain the ability. Blood ability feats have prerequisites of blood scores and derivations, of course, plus others if they're particularly powerful.

I've found it works well in my campaign, anyways. So, that's my solution without using a class... :)

-Fizz

[DanMcSorley]

On Mon, 24 Mar 2003, Peter Lubke wrote:
> A Scion class would solve most of the ECL issues being bandied around
> too. As a Scion advances in level, the number and quality of his/her
> blood abilities would also likewise rise. Most (no make that ALL)
> schemes I`ve seen so far do not allow for a starting blooded character
> to be rated as a level one character,

You haven`t read them all yet, then, because my very first suggestion, way
back, was to treat the scion template like powerful races get treated in
Savage Species. If scion is a +1 ECL class, it should have 1 racial level
which can be taken whenever the scion wants to get the full benefits of
being blooded.

For example:
A blooded character who hadn`t taken the level of scion would have a
bloodline, and be able to collect RP, but have no blood abilities. When
he picks up the level of scion, he can have blood abilities normally. You
ought to get a d6 hp and 2+int skill points (class skills: as
aristocrat?) for this racial level.

So a 1st level character might be a Fighter 1 (who would have a bloodline
but no blood abilities) or an unclassed scion, who would pick up a class
level at character level 2.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[Peter Lubke]

On Mon, 2003-03-24 at 12:32, oximoron wrote:

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oximoron wrote:
I thought that the idea here was to convert Birthright into its 3E equivelent
as third edition takes a completly diffrent approach to classes than 2E and I
belive it should be handled with templates and should be based on bloodline
strength rather than how high a stat is. Why should it be like that becouse
the bloodline strengt is suppposed to indicate how poweful bloodline powers
are.

You say "completely different", but don`t seem to really mean it. It`s
just as valid to say that the potential for bloodline powers depends on
bloodline score or strength. Luke Skywalker wasn`t born a Jedi - just
born with the potential.


It is also extremly rare to see a 1st level charecter with extremely high
bloodline score and those charecters that do are most likely dead from the
varius people that want to commit bloodtheft on the person if not that then
he is overly protected from harm and lives in a sheltered enviroment

Oh, you think!?
Let`s just assume that at some stage Darien Avan decides to marry for
the purpose of producing an heir. Will he choose an unblooded wife? Of
course not, that would defeat the purpose. So, the child is likely to
have a decent bloodline - significantly higher than most regents in
Cerilia. Blood abilities? When do these bloodline powers manifest in the
child? When does the child have a bloodline that can be stolen? Will
Avan have the child well guarded and protected? Will Avan have the child
tutored? Would he raise the child to develop and use his bloodline
abilities ?

Now what`s correct for extremes is also just as correct for the other
end of the spectrum.

The issues that you raise are not constrained to the subject at hand.
(i) Bloodtheft restrictions are insufficient to explain the status quo.
Personally I,
(a) do not allow bloodlines to manifest in minors. A bloodlines
does not begin to show up in a character until they begin to reach
adulthood (humans ages 14-20).
(B) do not allow a character with a bloodline higher than the
victim to benefit from bloodtheft at all. Of course, this means that
characters with high bloodlines (e.g. the Gorgon) are perpetually on
guard against lesser scions. It also caps (limits) the usefulness of
this technique as a way of increasing bloodline.


As a stat the bloodline should not be based on how high it is couse most
DM´s make players really work for those bloodline points and giving
diffrent ECL´s based on based on bloodline points would be like giving
ECL based on magical items that players carry around.

Let`s make this clear -- very very clear --- bloodline powers are really
sexy, they have appeal. DMs like them, players like them -- and they
start with them. That means that they start with bloodlines as well. In
an adventure only game, there is little emphasis on gaining more
bloodline and little opportunity to do so. This is not wrong.

In a domain only game, bloodline powers are almost completely ignored.
There is a huge emphasis on gaining bloodline and in preventing its
loss. Bloodline is tied into regency and power of the domain and regent.
This is also not wrong.

If you play a hybrid game, you are in fact playing two games side by
side, neither excludes the other.

ECLs based on bloodline points or bloodline score would make no sense as
these do not by themselves give a character any advantage in a adventure
context. Bloodline powers however, do.

A well-designed Scion class avoids the question of ECL by grading the
bloodline powers into the class levels. (Takes the Effective out of ECL,
so there`s just a CL) A first level Scion would have bloodline powers
equivalent to the powers of a first level wizard (or whatever if the
classes were in fact balanced - a highly debatable point).

The question of ECLs for regents is a completely separate issue. The
resources of a domain are comparable to other property (e.g. magic
items), and thus should be treated consistently with that treatment.


The only problem I see for templates is the 1st level group and how an
ECL affects them since ECL on a first level group would have more than
1 effective level I guess the DM´s in each campaign should deal with
that as they see fit.

I`m sorry, but that`s a really poor answer. "I don`t know, but (not
caring that much about 1st level characters) leave it to a DM to
decide." "I`m only interested in part of the problem."

That would make it most unlikely that it would be handled similarly by
all DMs. Just a mess of house rules.

These cases aren`t unusual exceptions, they are part of a full case
study (or should be). Any system that fails to take into account the
full case is not addressing the problem to provide a solution.



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[Peter Lubke]

On Mon, 2003-03-24 at 13:48, daniel mcsorley wrote:

On Mon, 24 Mar 2003, Peter Lubke wrote:
> A Scion class would solve most of the ECL issues being bandied around
> too. As a Scion advances in level, the number and quality of his/her
> blood abilities would also likewise rise. Most (no make that ALL)
> schemes I`ve seen so far do not allow for a starting blooded character
> to be rated as a level one character,

You haven`t read them all yet, then, because my very first suggestion, way
back, was to treat the scion template like powerful races get treated in
Savage Species. If scion is a +1 ECL class, it should have 1 racial level
which can be taken whenever the scion wants to get the full benefits of
being blooded.

Well, now I have. Okay "most schemes...."



For example:
A blooded character who hadn`t taken the level of scion would have a
bloodline, and be able to collect RP, but have no blood abilities. When
he picks up the level of scion, he can have blood abilities normally. You
ought to get a d6 hp and 2+int skill points (class skills: as
aristocrat?) for this racial level.

So a 1st level character might be a Fighter 1 (who would have a bloodline
but no blood abilities) or an unclassed scion, who would pick up a class
level at character level 2.

Not bad.
The following is not meant as criticism, rather discussion (although
criticism need not be harsh - a criticism IS a discussion of sorts).
I find that such templates are effectively a 0-level racial class with a
modifier. With a skill system in place, it does balance characters as
they have to buy blood abilities (is that what you meant by "normally"?,
I`d still rate getting them all in one go to be unbalanced). The
subtleties of the class/template distinction are a valid design point
here. Mostly, I find templates to be an abused feature (but then so is
class creation - oh well).

Not bad at all. Better than as an attribute by far. Has the potential to
be the most backward compatible method. But, I rather liked the concept
of a Scion that went beyond what we`ve seen so far (in 2e) - a kind of
Jedi-Psionicist character.

--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[Birthright-L]

From: "oximoron" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>

> It is also extremly rare to see a 1st level charecter with extremely
> high bloodline score and those charecters that do are most likely
> dead from the varius people that want to commit bloodtheft on the
> person if not that then he is overly protected from harm and lives
> in a sheltered enviroment
>

Eh?

Excepting bloodtheft and investiture, scions are born. Most of them have
been 1st level. Maybe they have not developed all their bloodline abilities
by then, but the bloodline strength is definitely there.

I don`t see the occurrence of random bloodtheft as very common. It is power,
not bloodline, that people fight over.

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