Make Scion a class

[ecliptic]

The problem with a skill system is that, while it is simple, it suffers from strong flaws. A system should not use skills to represent natural ability. Natural ability should enhance skills where applicable, however.

You are looking at it wrong. You use feats to gain your natural bloodline, you use skill points to hone your abilities.

I would like an explanation as to how the template system is unbalanced. True, it would require a little bit of work to properly scale, but that is where you balance the system.

A bit of work? There are severe reasons why templates and ECL races aren't allowed in peoples games. Because hardly any of them are balanced to begin with.

That's not much of a stretch from saying you became more skilled because you commited some sort of divine ritual (bloodtheft). In fact, I am writing a system where the ECL will be altered by different bloodline scores.

Whats the point? Why not make it a class then? It's the same thing but much easier to deal with.

Another problem with the skill system is that it offers powers based on a skill level.

News flash buddy, but all the systems powers are based on level. Your template has an ECL +3, it means its considered a level 3. You need to be level 4 to even take the template.

Normally, a skill is used for checks to determine if a certain action can be achieved.

Thats the keyword, normally.

Templates are the simplist of the alternatives presented.

No it isn't, it is by far the most complicated one brought up.

Its works nicely
with races, undead, and other monsters.

So do the other 2.

It can totally emulate a level
providing hit points, skill bonuses, save bonuses, and blood powers to make
the ECL penalty.

Might aswell make it a class.

Anyone who has found non-human races easy to build in 3e
has found that templates can be simple.

Templates are simple IF they are non changing. They will be a pain in the ass to use.

You don`t gain levels because you aquire someone else`s bloodline. Going up
or down levels would be a class based system.

Then just use a class to begin with.

Since there are no levels of
bloodedness with templates, there are no levels to gain or lose. What you
might gain or lose are ECL penalties, which really only effect how you score
challenges in assigning experience.

A DMs job is already a pain in the ass, do you need to tack on just that more crap?

It only makes sense that more powerful
characters learn less from encounters in which they can fall back on powers
that make the encounter substantially easier.

Yes and that is covered in all 3 systems.

IF you invent such a skill check to see if a killer succeeds, then you
need also to take bloodsilver weapons into account.

Yup. Bloodsilver like regular silver is considered a +1 weapon. It naturally grants a +1. If it is magical you add it's additional modifier to your role.

However if two scions fight each other, and one is rendered helpless,
how could the other fail to pierce his heart with a coup de grace and
commint bloodtheft?

Um the object is to limit how much blood power they get from the blood theft. If his blood power is more powerful then his opponents, he should be able to try and hold onto it. For if he is ressurected or brought back to life, he still holds his power (even though it may be less then before). It shows how much power he is able to rip away from the person.
Hence the skill role.

If bloodline becomes an exclusive skill, then
bloodline=skillpoints=regency collected, not to be influenced by
spending skill points but only by spending regency/bloodtheft?

Like I said before. The bloodline skill reperesents your ability to hone your bloodline.

[irdeggman]

Several points to make:

For using templates - True you can't start at 1st level with an ECL'd template. That was why I posted the 5 level scion class to emulate the way that Savage Species handled this situation. By combining the template and 5-level scion class (which doesn't give additional abilities by level, that is a function of the blood score) the Con that the template doesn't allow for highly blooded low level scions goes away. A scionwho has inherited his bloodline starts with an appropriate template. Using the 5-level scion class, the character decides whether or not he wishes to gain benefits from a higher template (minor template has no ECL so a character is entitled to minor blood abiities but no bonus hit points).

Ecliptic - have you read the d20 BRCS playtest document? In the proposal it talks about bloodsilver as transferring all the blood strength release (RP). With few exceptions, even those who don't like it or parts of it agree that it is d20 compatable. Now it does need to be worked on, it was never intended to be the end all be all and final "official" document sanctioned by the netforce - but it is a heck of a lot better than "let's use this skill or let's use this class" without a specific reference as to what should be changed (and why) the proposals come across as "these are my house rules" you all should use them and if you don't you are all fools.

Silver is not considered the same a +1 weapon. In fact the DR rules in 3.5 are specifically going to address this issue. Material does not equate to magical enhancement.

Other thread - true blood abilities are magical, but they are divine not arcane. They did come from the blood of the fallen gods. There is not a publication out there that has the prime attribute for divine spells being anything other than Wisdom. There are variations in the prime attribute for arcane magics (either Charisma or Intelligence), but every divine casting class uses Wisdom as the basis for divine spells.

Ecliptic - please try to address people respectfully. I can handle being personaly attacked, but I get upset when I see someone mistreating other people who have done nothing but express their opinions and have usually given reasons why they have said opinions. If you keep treating people this way then they will summarily disgard what good things you have to suggest. I know Gary has already made a similar (but shorter) comment on this issue.

End of venting.

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "ecliptic" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 9:44 AM


>

I would like an explanation as to how the template system
> is unbalanced. True, it would require a little bit of work to properly
> scale, but that is where you balance the system.

>
> A bit of work? There are severe reasons why templates and ECL
> races aren`t allowed in peoples games. Because hardly any of them
> are balanced to begin with.

This certainly seems to be throwing the baby out with the bathwater then.
Since campaigns differ, porting in someone elses game materials always
requires that inspection to make sure the ported element is both fitting and
balanced. Most of the stuff I see in print (Dragon, internet, supliments) I
recognize as being designed for someone elses game, meaning I really don`t
want it. Some of the stuff I find useable, but often not as I find it.
Adjustment is a fact of portability.

>

Another problem with the skill system is that it offers powers
> based on a skill level.

>
> News flash buddy, but all the systems powers are based on level.
> Your template has an ECL +3, it means its considered a level 3. You
> need to be level 4 to even take the template.

Typically a feat does not offer power based on level. The Dodge feat offers
the same +1 bonus at 1st level as it does at 9th level. Skills do, in fact,
work differently than feats. News Flash, there buddy.

>

Templates are the simplist of the alternatives presented.

>
> No it isn`t, it is by far the most complicated one brought up.

Yes it is. Enlighting discussion, by the way.

>

It can totally emulate a level providing hit points, skill
> bonuses, save bonuses, and blood powers to make
> the ECL penalty.

>
> Might aswell make it a class.

Classes come with traits not found in templates, like multi-classing
penalties. The purpose of a template, as it works with races and monsters
is to overlay a fixed and unchanging set of abilities, rather like being
blooded. If you have frequent bloodtheft, frequent shifting from one
bloodstrength to another, a class system might suit you better. Since I
have never had a player shift bloodlines catagorically, I have need for
anything but a template. It avoids the certain defects of the class based
system.

> Templates are simple IF they are non changing. They will be a pain in
> the ass to use.

I do use them, and find them as complicated as I do the dwarf template.
Again, this is because no one has ever gone from a minor to a major
bloodline IMC. Too much bloodtheft would be required, and I rather leave
such things to be exteamly rare.

As a side note, see how handy it is when you explain your point of view,
rather than just state aphorisms?

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Ariadne]

Originally posted by ecliptic

You would rather have over powered characters or a complicated rule system or something that totally goes against d20. I perfer not to screw over the system in which this is being built for. If you want to play it, go play 2nd edition Birthright.

Must those and other words be? Please get back to analytic discussion without being insulting. Others try this too...

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 10:59 AM


> For using templates - True you can`t start at 1st level with an
> ECL`d template.

True in once sense, false in another. ECL is only effective character
level. Other mechanics use true character level. Your maximum rank in a
class skill is your character level plus 3. A Fighter 1 with an ECL`d
template still only gets the same skill ceiling as the unblooded Fighter 1.
There are other uses for character level, its a quantity I have used for
several mechanics. ECL mostly just concerns establishing suitable
challenges and calculating how much experience an encounter with such a
challenge merits.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[ecliptic]

The purpose of a template, as it works with races and monsters
is to overlay a fixed and unchanging set of abilities

Thats right, fixed and unchanging.Which doesn't sit well with the scion.

If you have frequent bloodtheft, frequent shifting from one
bloodstrength to another, a class system might suit you better. Since I
have never had a player shift bloodlines catagorically, I have need for
anything but a template. It avoids the certain defects of the class based
system.

So you want it created for YOU, and no one else?

I do use them, and find them as complicated as I do the dwarf template.
Again, this is because no one has ever gone from a minor to a major
bloodline IMC. Too much bloodtheft would be required, and I rather leave
such things to be exteamly rare.

Sorry but you don't make something rare by making it so much of a pain in the ass no one simply wants to.

True in once sense, false in another. ECL is only effective character
level. Other mechanics use true character level. Your maximum rank in a
class skill is your character level plus 3. A Fighter 1 with an ECL`d
template still only gets the same skill ceiling as the unblooded Fighter 1.
There are other uses for character level, its a quantity I have used for
several mechanics. ECL mostly just concerns establishing suitable
challenges and calculating how much experience an encounter with such a
challenge merits.

You people complained about the complications the class gave. How their hitpoint adjustment wont be the same. Now you want to reduce the skills the person has?
It's the class problems to the extreme. Unless you have one person powerful then the rest of the adventure group.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by kgauck


----- Original Message -----
From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 10:59 AM


> For using templates - True you can`t start at 1st level with an
> ECL`d template.

True in once sense, false in another. ECL is only effective character
level. Other mechanics use true character level. Your maximum rank in a
class skill is your character level plus 3. A Fighter 1 with an ECL`d
template still only gets the same skill ceiling as the unblooded Fighter 1.
There are other uses for character level, its a quantity I have used for
several mechanics. ECL mostly just concerns establishing suitable
challenges and calculating how much experience an encounter with such a
challenge merits.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

Per the DMG pg 22 "Only let a player create one of these powerful characters when you would otherwise allow that player to create a higher-level standard character of equivalent power. Thus, if you would normally allow a player to create a 5th-level character, you can also allow him to create an ogre (with no class levels)."

This is in the section dealing with ECL'd races and is something we missed when we put together the playtest document. Savage Species outlined methods for allowing ECL'd races at 1st level via using monster classes which is what the 5-level scion class was constructed around. Based on SS being forward compatable I think it is safe to assume that the 3.5 DMG will follow this process.

You are very much correct in that ECL doesn't affect the maximum skill ranks that a character can have. Although it does affect the determination of the starting equipment and money.

[Birthright-L]

I would like to preface this by saying that I have NOT read ALL of the
previous posts on this subject, so if some of this has already been
brought up, I apologize.

I am in favour of have Scion a class (base, not prestige), as I think it
would be very easy to integrate, and would allow for ease of character
development while staying within the general confines of the d20 system.

It would allow PCs to start as scion characters if they wish, though it
would sacrifice early "adventuring" levels, it should still be playable,
depending on how it was set up (I would envision a character with d6hp,
and a BAB progression similar to clerics...a "middle of the road sort of
thing":). Bloodline would be a requirement for the class, and would be
determined separatly, similar to the 2nd ed method. However, bloodline
abilities, while related to your bloodline strength (which could be
anything from tainted to great at the time of character creation), would
be dependant on your scion level.

This would mean that all characters could start with a bloodline of any
strength, but their powers would be attributable to their scoin
level...meaning you wouldn`t get overpowering characters early on.

I know this might seem unfair to those who want to have the powerful
fighter/ scion, mage/scion etc, but I think it would consitute a middle of
the road type of character. If you want big bloodline powers, you`d have
to ramp up your scion levels, meaning your increas in bloodline powers
would be tempered by your loss of "adventuring class" abilities.

It would also get rid of more unwieldly things like calculating ECLs, etc.

Sorry I didn`t have time to come up with an example of the class
progression, but I`ll try to post something if I can.

Comments? Am I just repeating something that`s already been said? :)

Dark

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[geeman]

At 01:54 PM 4/18/2003 +0200, Michael Romes wrote:

>>...a fighter type could be an awnsheghlien (or ersheghlien) hunter
>>without a bloodline.
>
>In the Book of Magecraft such kind of character is already described,
>the "Bloodline hound", a specialized Magician.

Exactly. This would be a skill based way of reflecting that character
class`s abilities in d20.

>>A scion with skill in "bloodthievery" would get his ranks to that check.
>
>IF you invent such a skill check to see if a killer succeeds, then you
>need also to take bloodsilver weapons into account.

That`s a good point. Bloodsilver, however, doesn`t make bloodtheft more
likely, it just makes for a "more efficient" transfer of bloodline, so it`s
more the result of a successful bloodtheft that using such a weapon effects
rather than the ability to perform it.

>However if two scions fight each other, and one is rendered helpless,
>how could the other fail to pierce his heart with a coup de grace and
>commint bloodtheft?

I`ve never actually stabbed someone in the heart (literally, at least) but
from what I understand it`s not that easy. Assuming the victim isn`t
wearing armor a blade can still be turned by the hard bone across the
sternum and in the heat of the moment one might not hit the target which
is, after all, smaller than a grapefruit. The difficulty of an act of
bloodtheft against a helpless opponent might be DC 5, but where a coup de
grace might be automatic because there are several different acts that one
could perform to accomplish the deed, a stab through the heart might not be
the most convenient or functional action.

There is also the interpretation (my own) that an act of bloodtheft is
something of an act of will on the part of the thief. That is, releasing
the bloodline of another scion is not simply a matter of pricking the right
capillary. It might require some sort of willful effort that is a sort of
focus of the thief`s bloodline power. In such an interpretation releasing
the energies of another characters would be the equivalent of an act of
mental violence or a psychic blow. In a recent BR adventure I had
characters make a Bld check in order to gain control over a particular
magic item. The details aren`t particularly relevant, but the idea is
similar to this particular concepts, since the scions in question must
"activate" a particular kind of event based upon their own blooded skills.

Gary

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[geeman]

At 07:23 PM 4/18/2003 +0200, ecliptic wrote:

>

The purpose of a template, as it works with races and monsters
>is to overlay a fixed and unchanging set of abilities

>
>Thats right, fixed and unchanging.Which doesn`t sit well with the scion.

Several templates actually have effects that scale up with character
level. Mostly these are ones presented in Dragon or similar
places. Templates need not be fixed and unchanging.

>

If you have frequent bloodtheft, frequent shifting from one
>bloodstrength to another, a class system might suit you better. Since I
>have never had a player shift bloodlines catagorically, I have need for
>anything but a template. It avoids the certain defects of the class based
>system.

>
>So you want it created for YOU, and no one else?

You really need to start paying more attention to the tone and content of
your responses, eclectic. Nothing in the above quoted comments has
anything to do with your response, so not only is your response
non-sequitur but it is a confrontational non-sequitur at that.

>

I do use them, and find them as complicated as I do the dwarf template.
>Again, this is because no one has ever gone from a minor to a major
>bloodline IMC. Too much bloodtheft would be required, and I rather leave
>such things to be exteamly rare.

>
>Sorry but you don`t make something rare by making it so much of a pain in
>the ass no one simply wants to.

Again, non-sequitur, confrontational, rude and... well, I`m afraid it also
applies pretty well to most your suggestions since they would certainly
require an awful lot of effort to implement, so you`re also being
hypocritical here.

If you`re unable to respond without keeping a civil tone, I`m afraid I`m
going to have to ask you not to respond. There have been several
complaints and comments regarding you`re behavior. I`ve started getting
email off the list regarding your behavior, which is when I am obligated to
step in. I`ve asked you once that you be more careful regarding your tone,
and there have been several other posts commenting on your behavior. It`s
time to knock off the name calling and vulgarity, eclectic, and it would
certainly help if you would start responding to the actual statements
made. If you have anything specifically you want to ask please email me
directly at geeman@softhome.net.

>

True in once sense, false in another. ECL is only effective character
>level. Other mechanics use true character level. Your maximum rank in a
>class skill is your character level plus 3. A Fighter 1 with an ECL`d
>template still only gets the same skill ceiling as the unblooded Fighter 1.
>There are other uses for character level, its a quantity I have used for
>several mechanics. ECL mostly just concerns establishing suitable
>challenges and calculating how much experience an encounter with such a
>challenge merits.
>

>
>You people complained about the complications the class gave. How they
>wont be as strong as everyone else. How their hitpoint adjustment wont be
>the same. Now you want to reduce the skills the person has?
>It`s the class problems to the extreme. Unless you have one person
>powerful then the rest of the adventure group.

I`m not quite sure what it is you`re saying here, so I can`t tell if it`s
non-sequitur or not.... It would appear to be since the comments were
about how ECL functions and you responded with hit points and skills....

Gary

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