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  1. #1
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    Ok, I decided to try and estimate the population of Anuire at the time of
    Deismaar.

    Lets make some simplifying assumptions. First that the population levels for
    the provinces occupied by the Andu were half their current "level value."
    This seems pretty good as a first approach, because although we might expect
    much more growth than this during the height of the empire, the population
    level may have fallen somewhat since that time due to wars and conflict in
    the recent era. However, the population model I am using is Gary`s from the
    Cerilian Census repost a few days ago, and the population scale there is not
    linear, so a decrease in the province "level" indicates a greater than half
    reduction in actual population. To somewhat alleviate this, I will retain
    fractions and estimate population sizes for "half-levels" as well as full
    levels.

    Second, that the Andu at this time were occupying only the plains provinces
    of their area. This makes sense to me, but YMMV. This allows me to disclude
    provinces which have any little hill or mountain symbols, or include more
    than half forest or swamp area.

    Further, I can exclude areas which we know the Anuireans did not settle
    until later. This includes Talinie (which the Timeline says was colonized in
    Imperial times), Endier (which was part of the Spiderfell), and Dhoesone
    (which was a Rjuvik state at the time). I suspect that we can make a case
    that Coeranys ought to be excluded, too, but we`ll keep it in, as it meets
    all other criteria, and counterbalances Cariele which probably should be
    included but is excluded due to the forestation criteria above.

    When I do the calculations, I get a population estimate of 302,500 persons.
    Let`s say that slightly more than half of the population are male (due to
    child-birth related fatalities in females), giving us 152,500 males. Of the
    males, let`s say that the Anuirean mobilized all that were not decrepit with
    age or younger than 10, so perhaps 70% of the male population. This would
    give us an Andu army of slightly more than 100,000 (106,750). Further, let`s
    say they were sufficiently motivated that they also mobilized all females
    that were neither decrepit, younger than 10, or responsible for dependent
    children. Perhaps 20% of the female population, or 30,000 female warriors
    joined, making the total 136,750.

    These numbers seem reasonable to me, so perhaps there were 100,000 to
    150,000 Andu at the battle, and a somewhat smaller but comparable number of
    the other tribes. Let`s say 150,000 Andu, 100,000 Rjuvik, 100,000 Brecht,
    and 75,000 Masetians, for a total of 425,000 combatants. Let`s further say
    that there were 50,000 Vos present (on Azrai`s side), and a like number of
    elves, and that all the rest of Azrai`s army fled south rather than north
    and do not contribute to Cerilia. This indicates that the pool of potential
    blooded people is just above 500,000 (525,000).

    Ok, let`s say that the battle decimates that pool, leaving 50,000, of which
    10% gain a bloodline. That makes 5,000 instant scions. If the natural
    disasters following the event kills half of the survivors of the battle, we
    get 2,500 scions and 22,500 unblooded veterans.

    If cultural groups survive in the proportions at which they were present,
    this would leave us with:

    714 blooded Andu
    476 blooded Rjuvik
    476 blooded Brecht
    357 blooded Masetians
    238 blooded Vos
    238 blooded Elves

    This still seems pretty high to me, but perhaps it`s workable. Let`s try it
    with 1000 scions surviving Deismaar (1 in 5):

    286 blooded Andu
    190 blooded Rjuvik
    190 blooded Brecht
    143 blooded Masetians
    95 blooded Vos
    95 blooded Elves

    Ok, this maybe does seem a bit low, at least for the Vos and the Elves. Do
    we know: are there more than 95 blooded elves listed in the material? That
    is certainly the group for which we would expect the least growth in the
    last 1500 years.

    Comments or quibbles?

    Mark V.

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  2. #2
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    Mark VanderMeulen wrote:

    >Further, I can exclude areas which we know the Anuireans did not settle
    >until later. This includes Talinie (which the Timeline says was colonized in
    >Imperial times), Endier (which was part of the Spiderfell), and Dhoesone
    >(which was a Rjuvik state at the time). I suspect that we can make a case
    >that Coeranys ought to be excluded, too, but we`ll keep it in, as it meets
    >all other criteria, and counterbalances Cariele which probably should be
    >included but is excluded due to the forestation criteria above.
    >
    Should be included? I see Cariele not settled by humans before the 7th
    Cavallery died at the Little Big Horn ähm the Anuirean Legion was
    ambushed and annihilated by the sidhelien at the Gates of Doom
    (Mhellivene) which opened the mountain pass to first get into the area
    of Cariele. And having an Anuirean Legion would indicate that the Empire
    already existed as in your statement about Talinie.

    >When I do the calculations, I get a population estimate of 302,500 persons.
    >Let`s say that slightly more than half of the population are male (due to
    >child-birth related fatalities in females), giving us 152,500 males. Of the
    >males, let`s say that the Anuirean mobilized all that were not decrepit with
    >age or younger than 10, so perhaps 70% of the male population. This would
    >give us an Andu army of slightly more than 100,000 (106,750). Further, let`s
    >say they were sufficiently motivated that they also mobilized all females
    >that were neither decrepit, younger than 10, or responsible for dependent
    >children. Perhaps 20% of the female population, or 30,000 female warriors
    >joined, making the total 136,750.
    >
    Have you considered, that Mhoried was not settled immediately with the
    other areas, but was a goblin kingdom that first had to be conquered?

    >Ok, this maybe does seem a bit low, at least for the Vos and the Elves. Do
    >we know: are there more than 95 blooded elves listed in the material? That
    >is certainly the group for which we would expect the least growth in the
    >last 1500 years.
    >Comments or quibbles?
    >
    Elves are no problem. Calculate any number and if it is too high, then
    all those elves vanished in Sideath or Tuar Awhn ;-)
    bye
    Michael Romes

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  3. #3
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    > Have you considered, that Mhoried was not settled immediately with the
    > other areas, but was a goblin kingdom that first had to be conquered?

    I seem to remember reading somewhere that the 2nd emperor is the one that
    granted the lands of Mhoried to the first "Mhor", so that would seem to
    support that idea. I can`t remember where I read that, though. It might
    have been in the Falcon and the Wolf.

    -Anakin Miller
    -------------------------
    "What was sundered, shall be remade.
    What was stolen, shall be avenged. "
    - Engraved on the Crown of Diemed

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    Who are you to speak to me of loneliness, you who have not suffered as I have suffered. My father was lord of the Andu, ruler of a million souls, but not once did he ever claim me as his son. All those years I waited for a single word from him, a simple acknowledgment of my birthright. But, not even on his death bed did he claim me as his. So do not speak to me of your loneliness, you who have never been as alone as I have been all my life.

    - Prince Raesene Andu, -2 HC.

  4. #4
    Birthright Developer Raesene Andu's Avatar
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    Originally posted by AnakinMiller
    I seem to remember reading somewhere that the 2nd emperor is the one that
    granted the lands of Mhoried to the first "Mhor", so that would seem to
    support that idea. I can`t remember where I read that, though. It might
    have been in the Falcon and the Wolf.
    Actually, the Falcon and the Wolf states that the lands of Mhoried were settled by the Mhora, the third house of the Andu at the roughly the same time as the other Anuirean lands and then incorporated into the Anuirean empire in 70 HC. I've attached the relevant section of the timeline below.


    -515 HC The Flight from Shadow. The human tribes of Aduria begin their migration to Cerilia. The Mhora, Third House of the Andu tribe, arrive and settle in the lands that will become Mhoried.

    -508 HC The first recorded Mhor, Maglan, swears before the Red Oak.

    -400 HC Height of the gheallie Sidhe. The Mhora fight against the elves and the goblin-kingdom of Kar-Durgar.

    -166 HC The Mhora raze Kar-Durgar, finally defeating the goblins. The lands between the Stonebyrn and the Maesil become known as Mhoried.

    -2 HC War of Shadow opens, as Azrai’s forces begin an assault on all of Cerilia.

    0 HC Battle of Deismaar; Mhor Daegan slain in battle, but his son Raedan touched by the divine power.

    1 HC Upon taking the oaths before the Red Oak, Mhor Raedan forges the link between Mhor and land.

    70 HC Mhor Endira, granddaughter of Raedan, offers allegiance to Boeric Roele, formally incorporating Mhoried in the Anuirean Empire.

    71 HC Birth of Thendiere Mhoried, son of Endira and Boeric. The Mhoried claim to the Iron Throne is traced through him.
    Let me claim your Birthright!!

  5. #5
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    Atarikid wrote:

    >>Have you considered, that Mhoried was not settled immediately with the
    >>other areas, but was a goblin kingdom that first had to be conquered?
    >>
    >
    >I seem to remember reading somewhere that the 2nd emperor is the one that
    >granted the lands of Mhoried to the first "Mhor", so that would seem to
    >support that idea. I can`t remember where I read that, though. It might
    >have been in the Falcon and the Wolf.
    >-Anakin Miller
    >
    Browsing through I found Dragon Magazin (241) had the Chronicle of
    Cerilia and gives this dates for Mhoried:
    -508 HC Mhor Maglan begins rule of Mhors in Mhoried
    -166 HC The Mhora raze Kar-Durgar (I assume that this is the end of the
    former goblin kingdom)
    70 HC Mhor Endira swears allegiance to Boeric Roele, formally
    incorparating Mhoried into Anuirean Empire
    bye
    Michael Romes

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    At 06:27 AM 3/22/2003 -0600, you wrote:
    >> Have you considered, that Mhoried was not settled immediately with the
    >> other areas, but was a goblin kingdom that first had to be conquered?
    >
    >I seem to remember reading somewhere that the 2nd emperor is the one that
    >granted the lands of Mhoried to the first "Mhor", so that would seem to
    >support that idea. I can`t remember where I read that, though. It might
    >have been in the Falcon and the Wolf.

    Endira Mhoried. I think it`s just in Ruins of Empire.. I`ve never read
    Falcon and the Wolf, but I do know this fact.

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  7. #7
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    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Birthright Roleplaying Game Discussion
    > [mailto:BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]On Behalf Of Michael Romes

    > Should be included? I see Cariele not settled by humans before the 7th
    > Cavallery died at the Little Big Horn ähm the Anuirean Legion was
    > ambushed and annihilated by the sidhelien at the Gates of Doom
    > (Mhellivene) which opened the mountain pass to first get into the area
    > of Cariele. And having an Anuirean Legion would indicate that the Empire
    > already existed as in your statement about Talinie.

    Well, that`s a good point. I was going with the idea that Cariele was one of
    the 12 houses of the Andu before the empire, and so had an "ancestral
    range," but I suppose that range may have been further south. Or perhaps
    they were just a very small house, and it was only after they had grown in
    size that they claimed newly-opened land in the Empire.

    Mark V.

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