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  1. #1
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    I thought that people would appreciate a status of the 3 Chapter 2 polls I started. So here they are. They should remain open for another week (until Saturday).


    irdeggman
    Chapter 2 - Poll was posted on: 03-09-03 07:56:05

    I'm going to start a series of polls on Chapter 2. These are designed to help gauge the direction that the project should proceed. The polls will be very simple with yes/no type answers, anything more complicated will run the risk of becoming a useless tool. I will leave the polls open for around 2 weeks in oder to give people a chance to submit their votes. For those who are using the mailing list vice the net page itself, I'm sorry but you'll have to use the board to make your vote. It is just too difficult to try to compile a series of e-mails into a table, especially when it is very easy to use the board for this purpose.

    First Poll:

    Should the blood ability score be treated as a 7th ability type score?




    Choices Stats
    Yes, I like the concept and treatment. 59% (16)
    No, I object! 41% (11)


    irdeggman
    Chapter 2 Poll 2 - scion templates was posted on: 03-09-03 07:58:28

    Poll number 2:

    Should scion templates be used to represent the strength of bloodline derivation?




    Poll: Chapter 2 Poll 2 - scion templates
    Choices Stats
    Yes, I agree 61% (17)
    No, I object! 39% (11)


    irdeggman
    Chapter 2 Poll 3 - ECLs was posted on: 03-09-03 08:01:02

    Should ECLs be used for the different bloodline strengths?




    Poll: Chapter 2 Poll 3 - ECLs
    Choices Stats
    Yes, I agree 67% (22)
    No, I object! 33% (11)
    Duane Eggert

  2. #2
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Final Chapter 2 poll results are (I've closed them, as I said I would):

    Should the blood ability score be treated as a 7th ability type score?

    Yes, I like the concept and treatment. 58% (18)
    No, I object! 42% (13)

    Should scion templates be used to represent the strength of bloodline derivation?

    Yes, I agree 56% (19)
    No, I object! 44% (15)

    Should ECLs be used for the different bloodline strengths?

    Yes, I agree 65% (24)
    No, I object! 35% (13)




    How I read the poll results (the line I drew for a clear majority was to be close to twice as many in favor as opposed, roughly 66% of the vote in the polls given):

    A majority likes the 7th ability score use to treat the blood ability score. This is only a simple majority and not a clear majority so the proposal needs to be revamped, an alternate needs to be developed or 2 separate systems need to be presented, one as a variant.

    To proceed along the path of developing another viable system the following are points that need to be addressed by any system developed:

    (1) It has to be simple. At least no more complicated than the 3rd edition standard systems used, e.g., skills and feats, class advancement, spell casting, etc.

    (2) The system has to be compatible with both a random based system and a planned development system (a point buy system is an example of a planned development system).

    (3) The system has to mesh with 3rd edition mechanics.

    (4) This one is mine and not necessarily a set in stone precept from a rule standpoint, it just makes things easier game mechanics-wise. The system should lend itself to adaptation to increasing the DCs of blood abilities that require them (similar to spell DCs).


    A majority likes the scion as a template concept to represent the strength of a bloodline, again only a simple majority. The same actions as needed for the blood score above need to be taken.


    A clear majority, almost 2 to 1 for like the use of ECLs for different bloodline strengths.
    This is something to maintain in our minds as we pursue the above two tasks. This clearly can’t be totally addressed until the previous two issues are addressed.
    Duane Eggert

  3. #3
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    On Mon, 2003-03-24 at 05:28, irdeggman wrote:

    This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
    You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1449

    irdeggman wrote:

    Final Chapter 2 poll results are (I`ve closed them, as I said I would):

    Should the blood ability score be treated as a 7th ability type score?

    Yes, I like the concept and treatment. 58% (18)
    No, I object! 42% (13)

    Should scion templates be used to represent the strength of bloodline derivation?

    Yes, I agree 56% (19)
    No, I object! 44% (15)

    Should ECLs be used for the different bloodline strengths?

    Yes, I agree 65% (24)
    No, I object! 35% (13)



    Pretty small numbers. And no consideration given to the list members.

    Even so, with the possible exception of the ECL question, the results
    look inconclusive. Anyone willing to do the actual statistical analysis?
    (that`s a test that the sample was taken from a population with no
    preference for the result -- failure will indicate a preference)


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  4. #4
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    All right, it is time to move to the next step. We need a write up of the other versions proposed for determining blood ability score.

    The proposals need to be complete in that they stand on their own and don’t have any missing gaps. Proposals that are prefaced by "I was thinking that something like this could work" or "how about this for an idea" are counterproductive at this point. The proposals need to be capable of being used in both a random generation method system and a non-random generated system, similar to a point-buy. If a proposed system can’t work in both systems then it won’t be considered. Why am I taking this stance? Because there has been a lot of people expressing their opinions that they want one or the other type of system and hence both must be supported in any "official" document. The proposed system should also include a means of gaining blood abilities. This must also be compatible with a random and a player’s choice system for the same reasons as above. Note that the system existing in the 2nd edition rule set is not compatible with a non-random generated system as written.

    Timeline: 3 weeks from today. If you need (or want) to you can e-mail them to me (irdeggman@cox.net) and I will do a “quickie” edit and rough formatting – give me about a week or so, depending on how much work there is to do. I will arrange to get them downloadable, if necessary, so that people can review them. We will then look them over, discuss for around 2 weeks and then vote on which system to choose and proceed from there.

    The reason I am pushing this is that if we don’t have any deadlines then nothing will get accomplished (thanks Travis). The list and net site have been hosting discussions on how to do things for around 2 years so far and I have spent the last year working real hard trying to get something out to discuss in the hopes of being able to produce an "official" product. Playtime is over folks it’s now time to put our noses to the grindstone and work towards getting that "official" product completed.
    :)
    Duane Eggert

  5. #5
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 11:59 AM 3/25/2003 +0100, irdeggman wrote:

    > All right, it is time to move to the next step. We need a write up of
    > the other versions proposed for determining blood ability score.
    >[Snip]
    >Timeline: 3 weeks from today.

    I`ve been working on a system that combines what I dubbed "2e to 3e
    bloodlines" that accompanies the "bloodline point" ideas I`ve been bouncing
    around for a while now.

    I _should_ be able to finish it within your timeline since I`ve already put
    about a week or two worth of work into the document. Despite that, three
    weeks *is* awful tight. I just did a rough count and I`ve still got 19
    blood abilities that either still need to be written up or that are
    incomplete, and there is much explanatory text that needs expounding on to
    make the system coherent. That amounts to several thousand words of
    prose. I just can`t make any promises regarding how much time I`ll have to
    dedicate to the project in the immediate future. I know the guys who spent
    over a year produced the BRCS can relate to the difficulty of putting
    together that much text, so maybe a month or six weeks would be a bit more
    reasonable. That way you guys can have several options to choose
    from. (If no one else thinks they might have trouble making this deadline
    then I`ll let it go.)

    If I might engage in a little shameless self-promotion, one of the ideas
    I`m basing the bloodline point concept on is that every blood ability
    should completely scale up and scale down. That is, instead of having a
    bunch of blood abilities that only had a "minor" level or--even more
    annoying--those that only have a "great" level every blood ability will be
    available to scions with as little as a single bloodline point to spend,
    and those blood abilities that were heretofore only minor will have
    amazing, god-like extensions of their capacity. It makes for some very
    interesting bloodline descriptions. As for instance, here`s what I did
    with Invulnerability which was only available as a great blood ability in
    Blood Enemies. (The formatting is going to get screwed up, and there are a
    couple of aspects that aren`t fully explained in the below text like the
    abbreviation in parenthesis, but c`est la vie.)

    Invulnerability (Invul) - Az, Ba, Vo
    You are more difficult to kill than a typical person.
    Base Power: You gain the following powers and abilities for each BP
    spent on Invulnerability:

    BP Power
    1 Instead of dying when you reach -10 hit points (or 0 constitution)
    you remain in a coma-like state, requiring only a successful first aid
    check (Heal DC 15) to return you to 0 hit points. You may still be killed
    by a coup de grace or subsequent damage that reduces you below -10 hit points.
    2 When reduced to negative hit points you no longer lose 1 hp/round
    if you fail a check to stabilize. You do not become stabile, but grow no
    worse.
    3 While at negative hit points you regenerate 1 hp/hour until
    returned to consciousness at 1 hit point.
    4 You are immune to all death effects from poisons, magic or massive
    damage.
    5 You remain conscious and aware while at zero or negative hit
    points, but you are only capable of making partial actions.
    6 You can no longer suffocate, drown, starve to death or otherwise
    die due to lack of air or nourishment.
    7 You are only killed after a particular procedure is performed after
    you are reduced to -10 (or fewer) hit points. The procedure is a
    relatively simple one. For instance, your body must be burned,
    decapitated, or sprinkled with holy water.
    8 You are immune to critical hits.
    9 You are only killed after a special procedure is performed after
    you are reduced to -10 hit points. The procedure is complex and arcane,
    requiring special materials and actions. As a general guideline the
    procedure needed to kill a scion with this level of Invulnerability would
    require the equivalent of an adventure.

    When it comes to scaling up blood abilities, there`s probably not a better
    example than the rather innocuous Direction Sense minor blood ability from
    the RB. On can, however, scale that kind of thing up so that it becomes
    pretty powerful and useful in play at both the adventure and the domain level:

    Direction Sense (DirSen) - Ma, Re
    You have a seemingly preternatural sense of direction as well as an
    uncanny ability to find the right path, locate objects and estimate distance.
    Base Power: You gain the following powers and abilities for each BP
    spent on Direction Sense:

    BP Power
    1 You can apply your Bld modifier on all Intuit Direction
    checks. Intuit Direction checks take you 1 round instead of 1
    minute. Scions of Reynir may add this bonus to checks made while in the
    wilderness and scions of Masela to checks made at sea. In addition, you
    may make a similar check to know your depth or altitude. For scions of
    Reynir depth and altitude are in relation to the surface of the earth while
    scions of Masela know their depth or altitude above sea level.
    2 You may make an Intuit Direction check to know the direction of any
    location. The DC of this check depends upon your familiarity with the
    locale sought.

    Knowledge DC
    Familiar (your home or similar locale) 15
    Firsthand (you have been there before) 20
    Secondhand (location described in detail) 25
    Vague (location only described briefly) 30

    3 You may use Locate Object (PHB 223) 1/day as a supernatural
    ability. This ability has a range of 400 ft. + 40 ft./character level and
    remains in effect for 1 minute/character level.
    4 Your ability to locate works on unique objects that are merely
    described to you and can be used to locate creatures as Locate Creature
    (PHB 223.) The locate ability for scions of Reynir is not blocked by lead
    and the ability of scions of Masela is not blocked by water.
    5 You may make an Intuit Direction check
    6 While your locate ability is in effect you can actually picture a
    location as if using Clairvoyance (PHB 184.)

    Enhancements: By spending 1 BP you may increase the number of times you
    can use your Locate Object ability to 3/day.
    By spending 1 BP the range of your ability to locate objects is
    doubled. By spending an additional BP it is increased to 1 mile per
    character level. By spending a third BP the range of your ability to
    locate objects is increased to 1 province per character level.

    Gary

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  6. #6
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Gary,
    You don't need to include all of the blood abilites in your document to meet the deadline I set - just enough to get the idea. Any such major changes to blood abilities (like the scaling to minor through great) will generate a massive amount of discussion (and should). There really hasn't been all that much discussion about the individual blood abilites in the playtest document and that disturbs me.
    Duane
    Duane Eggert

  7. #7
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    irdeggman writes:

    <quote> Gary,
    You don`t need to include all of the blood abilites in your document to
    meet the deadline I set - just enough to get the idea. Any such major
    changes to blood abilities (like the scaling to minor through great) will
    generate a massive amount of discussion (and should).
    </quote>

    Ah, OK. Will do. I`ll write up as much of it as possible in the next week
    or two before I shoot you off another copy of the file.

    <quote>
    There really hasn`t been all that much discussion about the individual
    blood abilites in the playtest document and that disturbs me.
    </quote>

    Was there anything in particular that you thought would be controversial?
    `Porting blood abilities is arguably one of the more simple aspects of a
    conversion if one wants to go with a straight line sort of thing since many
    of the abilities themselves were based on spells or abilities that remain in
    3e. The tough part is where those abilities interact with 3e mechanics that
    didn`t exist in 2e, like the skill system or feats.

    Gary

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  8. #8
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Something else I should have made clearer. The tasking is to find another way to capture the blood line score. Unless it is an essential part of that mechanic do not rewrite the blood abilities. This would diffuse the issue being addressed. Once we come up with a mechanic for blood line score then we will work on the method for quantifying strength (minor, major, great, true) in a mechanic that lends towards an ECL or something that equivalantly gets it done. I want to focus on one thing at a time otherwise we will be going in too many directions at once. That is why I felt the 3 week time period was very doable - it was for a limited task and not the rewriting of the netire chapter. We can address how people feel about the individual blood abilities last. By then we should have come to some kind of common ground and have built up enough steam to roll on.:)
    Duane Eggert

  9. #9
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    At 09:40 PM 3/25/2003 +0100, you wrote:
    >This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
    > You can view the entire thread at:
    http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1449
    >
    > irdeggman wrote:
    > Something else I should have made clearer. The tasking is to find another
    way to capture the blood line score. Unless it is an essential part of that
    mechanic do not rewrite the blood abilities. This would diffuse the issue
    being addressed. Once we come up with a mechanic for blood line score then
    we will work on the method for quantifying strength (minor, major, great,
    true) in a mechanic that lends towards an ECL or something that
    equivalantly gets it done. I want to focus on one thing at a time otherwise
    we will be going in too many directions at once. That is why I felt the 3
    week time period was very doable - it was for a limited task and not the
    rewriting of the netire chapter. We can address how people feel about the
    individual blood abilities last. By then we should have come to some kind
    of common ground and have built up enough steam to roll on.:)

    irdeggman,

    if all we are doing is trying to capture the bloodline score, why is there
    a 3-week period for a write up? A description of how to treat bloodline
    score in any system would be 2-3 sentences at most. In the 2e system it is
    really simple: bloodline score = max amount of RP you can collect in one
    season.

    Am I missing something here, or is the first thing we are voting on a
    really small step?

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  10. #10
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 02:13 AM 3/29/2003 -0600, Shade wrote:

    >if all we are doing is trying to capture the bloodline score, why is there
    >a 3-week period for a write up? A description of how to treat bloodline
    >score in any system would be 2-3 sentences at most. In the 2e system it is
    >really simple: bloodline score = max amount of RP you can collect in one
    >season.
    >
    >Am I missing something here, or is the first thing we are voting on a
    >really small step?

    I think they`re looking for people to write up examples of that bloodline
    score system, not just describe it in a couple of sentences. That means
    text describing bloodline the bloodline system, maybe a few tables if
    that`s necessary to outline the system, and some color text to describe how
    to use those tables. As part of such a description it`s probably necessary
    to write up how bloodline strength works because they are closely
    related. It would also make sense to describe how bloodline score leads to
    the creation of blood abilities. While short, it amounts to about the
    equivalent of p20, parts of p21 and 22 of the RB. I just did a word count
    on the write up for bloodline score I`ve been working on and it amounts to
    1,800 words or so.

    That`s a bit deceptive, I think, because bloodline is imbedded with various
    other 3e concepts. I`ve a couple of feats, for instance, that effect
    bloodline, and some alternate guidelines for how someone might use the
    point buy method rather than random generation, along with a system of
    blood abilities that differs from the norm. Divorcing the bloodline score
    section from the whole makes for a somewhat disjointed appearance, because
    bloodline strength influences bloodline score which influences blood
    abilities. Some suggestions would also seem better than others at relating
    various bloodline score related issues like bloodtheft, so how much to
    write up is somewhat difficult to gauge. I`d suggest the minimum text
    necessary to convey the utility and merits of the system would be a good
    guideline.

    Gary

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