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03-18-2003, 02:54 AM #21
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At 06:09 PM 3/17/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>On Mon, 17 Mar 2003, irdeggman wrote:
>
>> if it required adjusted very often than the system needed to be
>> adjusted so that it wasn`t common practice for the DM to make these
>> adjustments.
>
>I know I`m endlessly repeating myself here, but there is a crucial point
>which is too often being glossed over.
>
>Just because you want to balance bloodline _against_ ability scores does
>_not_ mean you need to make bloodline _into_ an ability score.
>
>I might accept the former. I cannot accept the latter.
>
>I heartily support some form of point-buy system to generate bloodline
>scores deterministically, specifically in order to remove the gross
>unfairness of the huge random variation in the standard table.
>
>However, I think any change to the bloodline system which results in every
>single blooded character presented in any 2e Birthright product not having
>exactly the same bloodline score as they were printed with is a bad idea.
>
>Generate bloodline scores however you want. I just think it is a terrible
>plan to change the scale of the resulting bloodline scores.
I really agree with Ryan here. If you want to remove the randomness, that
is totally cool - but the scale should remain the same. GT should still be
Reynir 49 and DA should still be Anduiras 70. Those numbers are only really
important on the domain level.
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03-18-2003, 11:33 PM #22
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irdeggman wrote:
>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1445
>
> irdeggman wrote:
> Some reasons for using the 7th ability score for blood abilites (not in order of importance):
>
>1) It is a relatively easy concept to follw. Paralleling the normal ability scores and is hence more intuitively understandable. (This is not something that can`t be changed as it is only an understanding thing and not a mechanics driver, although for 1st time players it would be a great benefit)
>
You could as well use the BAB table if you want to use a 3E table.
e.g. Bloodline of 6 (2E 12) means 1 major, 1 minor ability ;-)
But it will still shift the existence of bloodlines and their
bloodabilitys which changes the persons and their bloodlines in the books.
>2) It makes it easy to apply a "modifier" to adjust the DC of blood abilities. (This is by far the most significant issue. If we decide to use a different concept for the blood score than we will still need to come up with some way to make a ready-to-use adjustment for DCs based on strength)
>
The DC to save against a Bloodability could be the same as for spells 10
+ the level of the blood abilty (minor/major/great of whatever).
>3) It gives those who wish to play a non-scion something to make a trade off with. (Many people have talked about running "split" campaigns where a player has 2 (or more) PCs to run with one of them being a scion/regent and the other not)
>
And why should his 2nd character be equal in power to his first?
Why can´t a servant simply be less powerful - or a longtime general MORE
powerful than the ruler?
bye
Michael Romes
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03-19-2003, 01:42 AM #23
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Originally posted by ConjurerDragon
irdeggman wrote:
>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1445
>
> irdeggman wrote:
> Some reasons for using the 7th ability score for blood abilites (not in order of importance):
>
>1) It is a relatively easy concept to follw. Paralleling the normal ability scores and is hence more intuitively understandable. (This is not something that can`t be changed as it is only an understanding thing and not a mechanics driver, although for 1st time players it would be a great benefit)
>
You could as well use the BAB table if you want to use a 3E table.
e.g. Bloodline of 6 (2E 12) means 1 major, 1 minor ability ;-)
But it will still shift the existence of bloodlines and their
bloodabilitys which changes the persons and their bloodlines in the books.
bye
Michael Romes
Duane Eggert
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03-19-2003, 09:26 AM #24
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From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
> But the characters in the books all need to be changed anyway
A plea for simplicity, here!
Most of the characters from the books have a very simple format, that gave
scant but sufficient information to use them on the domain level of play.
Like this:
King Uldviik (MRj; F6; Re, major, 22; LN) (from Tribes, page 50)
This was enough. There was no need for anything more. No attributes, no
skills, just a class, a level, an alignment and some bloodline info. If the
character was to appear in a scenario, this would have to be expanded upon
greatly, but at the domain level, it was sufficient.
I liked that. I liked the fact that the system was simple and
straightforward. I would prefer if we did not HAVE to make a full write-up
for King Uldviik and all his innumerable compatriots that only got the
shorthand description. And in very few cases do I see a need to change the
information included in such a capsule for 3E.
Thus I`d like the bloodline information to stay on the same formula it was.
I`d like the domain system no more complex than that it can accommodate
realms being run by characters for whom this is all the information we have.
I can accept more detailed rules for PC realms, but NPC realms should be
kept simple.
/Carl
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03-19-2003, 04:46 PM #25
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irdeggman wrote:
>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1445
>
> irdeggman wrote:
>Originally posted by ConjurerDragon
>irdeggman wrote:
>
>>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
>>You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1445
>>
>>irdeggman wrote:
>>Some reasons for using the 7th ability score for blood abilites (not in order of importance):
>>
>>1) It is a relatively easy concept to follw. Paralleling the normal ability scores and is hence more intuitively understandable. (This is not something that can`t be changed as it is only an understanding thing and not a mechanics driver, although for 1st time players it would be a great benefit)
>>
>You could as well use the BAB table if you want to use a 3E table.
>e.g. Bloodline of 6 (2E 12) means 1 major, 1 minor ability ;-)
>
>But it will still shift the existence of bloodlines and their
>bloodabilitys which changes the persons and their bloodlines in the books.
>bye
>Michael Romes
>
>But the characters in the books all need to be changed anyway. They didn`t have skills and feats in 2nd ed, the base class descriptions and abilities are substantially different, all characters get to apply a +1 ability modifier every 4th level, etc. So what is the difference if every character needs to be redone (mostly from scratch) anyways. This arguement is too simplistic in its approach. It might as well be "because I don`t want to change them". You have expressed other valid reasons for not changing and they are much more cohesive than this one.:)
>
Changing Bloodlines changes something that was independent from 2E
rules, as in 2E core there were no bloodlines.
To change the class data like feats/skills instead of non-/weapon
proficiencys is converting 2E to 3E.
So while I see it as good to use the new 3E rules to replace the 2E
stuff, I do not see the need to change a bloodline system that was an
addition to the core rules and not part of it.
As someone else already wrote, I was even confused by the simple 3E
bloodline is halve of the 2E bloodline.
But you still collect 3E bloodline X 2 RP which again equals the old 2E
RP collection... Why not stay with the simple max. RP collection =
bloodline as it is completely independent from any balance issues
between characters and is used only on the domain level of play?
bye
Michael Romes
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03-20-2003, 01:03 AM #26
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At 09:56 AM 3/19/2003 +0100, you wrote:
>From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
>
>> But the characters in the books all need to be changed anyway
>
>A plea for simplicity, here!
>
>Most of the characters from the books have a very simple format, that gave
>scant but sufficient information to use them on the domain level of play.
>Like this:
>
>King Uldviik (MRj; F6; Re, major, 22; LN) (from Tribes, page 50)
>
>This was enough. There was no need for anything more. No attributes, no
>skills, just a class, a level, an alignment and some bloodline info. If the
>character was to appear in a scenario, this would have to be expanded upon
>greatly, but at the domain level, it was sufficient.
>
>I liked that. I liked the fact that the system was simple and
>straightforward. I would prefer if we did not HAVE to make a full write-up
>for King Uldviik and all his innumerable compatriots that only got the
>shorthand description. And in very few cases do I see a need to change the
>information included in such a capsule for 3E.
>
>Thus I`d like the bloodline information to stay on the same formula it was.
>I`d like the domain system no more complex than that it can accommodate
>realms being run by characters for whom this is all the information we have.
>I can accept more detailed rules for PC realms, but NPC realms should be
>kept simple.
I`d like to second Carl here. The only thing that needs to be changed
possibly is class.. some characters might pick up a PrC or some
multiclassing. Fulgar the Bold, for instance, should have his class levels
adjusted for 3e but everything else should stay the same. His RP collected
certainly shouldn`t change, so why change the bloodline?
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05-31-2003, 09:20 AM #27
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I just want to leave my opinion about bloodlines in this playtest version.
We are playing "normal" campaings in Cerilia, so I don't know if this new system is good or bad in regent style of games.
Bloodline as a seventh ability is good idea, but I have found one problem in our games. We are using "point buy"-system to create characters, so blooded characters are weaker, dummier, clumsier etc because they have to use points to buy their bloodline. This can avoided by giving, for example +0 points for minor bloodline to buy stats, +4 for major, +8 for great and +12 for true. It is then up to player if he/she want's to play dummier regent than commoners are. Old system where bloodline was randomly determined from 0 to NN was crappy. You could have great bloodline, but your only power might have been deep blue eyes and your friend could have major bloodline and he can teleport through water, heal with his hands and so on. Rrright... That old system has become a joke in our gaming group (I have dexterity of rhino or sight of the mole). Of course some of the blood abilities can be great roleplaying elements, but ad&d/d&d was/is heavily combat oriented playing system.
I think players should have possibility to affect their bloodline strenght, derivation and powers in character creation. IMO it makes playing characters more rewarding when blood abilities support the idea of the character. So vote that keep the idea of seventh ability and possibility to choose abilities.I do believe
Only Innocence can save the world
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05-31-2003, 04:38 PM #28Originally posted by Birthright-L (Carl Kramer)
This was enough. There was no need for anything more. No attributes, no skills, just a class, a level, an alignment and some bloodline info. If the character was to appear in a scenario, this would have to be expanded upon greatly, but at the domain level, it was sufficient.
I liked that. I liked the fact that the system was simple and straightforward. I would prefer if we did not HAVE to make a full write-up for King Uldviik and all his innumerable compatriots that only got the shorthand description. And in very few cases do I see a need to change the information included in such a capsule for 3E.
BTW shorthand descriptions are really boring.
May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!
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05-31-2003, 06:38 PM #29
When ever you add a new attribute, you need to increase the number of points
available. Let`s say I feel compelled to divide INT into Logic and
Intuition (or Deduction and Induction). The standard 25 point allocation is
no longer standard. I`ll come up with underpowered characters. I need to
figure out what I want the new Standard Array to look like. Let`s say I add
another "12", so the Standard Array looks like 15, 14, 13, 12, 12, 10, 8.
That means I need to add 4 more points to accomodate my new skill at the
level I want it at. But, what if my new skill were optional? If the Blood
Strength can be 0, I have a problem making new point buys, since my standard
base-line is 8, and my new score is 0. The solution to this is generally
going to be a mechanism that has an uneven conversion ratio.
Let`s say I added one new point to the standard allocation. Let`s say I
allow the conversion of 3 Blood points for every standard point as long as
my blood score is below 8. If I scale the table of point buys below 8,
allowing each increment to be purchased at half a point. I can buy 4 for a
point, 6 for two points, and 8 for three points. Of course I could ignore
the blood points and spend my one standard point on some standard attribute.
That puts a player in a choice to either taking a 12 and turning it into a
13, or having an 8 in blood score. An acceptable exchange, IMO, for the
extra powers of being blooded. Tweak the ratio of standard points to blood
points, as you see fit. 2:1 puts the choice between moving the 12 to 13, or
6 in the blood attribute. 4:1 give you a 9 in the blood attribute.
In any event, you can`t add attributes without adding allocation points
unless you actually want low scores in this new attribute, or some
substitute.
Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com
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05-31-2003, 07:46 PM #30
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Oh god, are we here again?
Originally posted by AnakinMiller
Yes, I understand that the "volunteers" have dedicated their beloved
personal time and what not to this project. But the simple fact that they
volunteer to do this should not suddenly become the *Holy Shield* of can do
no wrongs.
If you're not even willing to visit a website to log your opinion, I don't think it's likely you'll be producing a 200 page doc to rival the playtest one.
Petulance, bah.
CM.
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