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03-18-2003, 11:52 PM #51
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Ryan B. Caveney wrote:
>On Mon, 17 Mar 2003, Gary wrote:
>
>>There are some things that could definitely do with an update, though,
>>and it wouldn`t be a problem.
>>
>So would you also change province and holding levels to span the range
>3-18 instead of 0-10? There is no need to change the numbers assigned to
>bloodline scores. It is gratuitous, unnecessary, and needlessly
>cumbersome at the domain level. There is no pressing need to change it,
>so it should be left alone.
>
:-)
I like your example. And I definitely want that all province start at
level 8 (because 8 does not cost anything in a point-buy-system)...
bye
Michael Romes
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03-19-2003, 01:34 AM #52
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Actually Daniel, there was nothing in the original BR rules that prevented a paladin from casting realm spells. They just gained them rather slowly so it wasn't generally useful. If using the sphere modification contained in the BoP it made it even more plausable.
The proposed rules for Realm spells are that the caster must be capable of gaining RP from the source (Sources for arcane casting and temples for divine casting) they must expend a significant amount of time for research and make a spellcraft check to learn the spell . This is similar, but not exactly the same, to the way characters can learn Epic Level spells. The number of reamlm spells a caster can know is equal to the number of ranks he has in knowledge (arcana) or knowledge (religion). These spells don't count against the number of spells that a sorcerer may know.:)Duane Eggert
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03-19-2003, 01:40 AM #53
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At 11:46 AM 3/18/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>On Mon, 17 Mar 2003, Shade wrote:
>> ? A fighter or thief can`t cast domain spells either. What is your point?
>
>Under the original rules, not the hodgepodge skill RP collection rules,
>paladins got half RP from temples, but no realm spells. So their realm
>wouldn`t be drastically overpowered even if they got a charisma bonus to
>blood abilities. Bards, likewise, collected RPs from hardly anything.
>Half from guilds, right?
I`m not talking about the realm level. I`m talking about the adventuring
(or interpersonal/individual) level, where the vast majority of blood
abilities have an impact (except for battlewise).
>> The problem is that paladin/bard/sorc already use charisma as their prime
>> combat stat. They have a big advantage over other classes when blood
>> abilities also depend on charisma, effectively giving them "2 for the price
>> of 1." Other characters have to sacrifice their prime requisites to be good
>> at blood abilities, but Charisma classes don`t.
>
>I don`t think this is a problem. A paladin needs high Str and Con for
>fighting, Wisdom to cast spells, and Charisma to turn undead, right? By
>that logic, a fighter is better off than a paladin if charisma is the main
>stat, because he doesn`t have to sink much into Wisdom.
Is it our mandate to rebalance the core classes? Basically what you are
saying is this: in the core rules, Fighters require 2 stats (str/con), and
Paladins require 4. That may be, but in theory, the core classes are
supposed to be balanced vs each other. The paladin`s wider variety of
abilities (spellcasting, healing, turning) is balanced by the fact that he
has more stat dependencies. Now if you add blood abilities, in which every
character has to spend points in charisma to get decent effect, you`ve just
added to the # of stat dependencies for a fighter without adding a similar
stat dependency to a paladin.
>Bards need charisma, but are generally considered underpowered anyway, so
>if they get an extra point to the DCs of their blood abilities out of it,
>I don`t think that breaks anything.
Again, is it our mandate to rebalance the core classes? You`ve argued
against this very thing quite often.
>The only one this is a problem for is sorcerors, but see below.
>
>> >Which brings me to what you reminded me of, can Sorcerors cast domain
>> >spells? Do those count against their number of spells known? Was this
>> >covered in the BRCS doc, or missed?
>>
>> I houseruled that realm spells don`t count against spells known for
>> sorcerers. IMC sorcerers and wizards are basically identical at the realm
>> level of play.
>
>That might be too big of a free advantage to sorcerors, since their
>difference from wizards is that they don`t know many spells but cast them
>a lot.
"Casting them a lot" is completely irrelevant at the domain level of play,
with realm spells. Being able to cast a greater # of spells a day is a
useless ability when it takes you a month to cast a spell.
Battle spells, however, are a different story. Since you can cast several
of these in one day, I enforce the spells known restriction on sorcerers
for these spells. My rule is that if a sorcerer knows the basic spell (ie
magic missile) he can spend a research action to try to learn the battle
spell version of it "rain of magic missiles." IMC `cast battle spell` is
essentially a specialized metamagic feat, that instead of increasing the
spell level slot to memorize (which actually is something we should
consider) requires a research action and increased material components in
most cases. Since the sorcerer already burned a slot on magic missile, he
doesn`t have to burn a second slot on rain of magic missiles. Now if for
instance he didn`t learn Charm Person or a similar spell on the Charm
chain, he can never learn Charm Unit.
>Realm spells should probably count for this somehow. Either tieing them
>to a regular spell like someone else suggested, or making them spells
>known directly. A realm spell should really be a level 1-9 spell with a
>very long casting time, pricey material components (measured in GBs), and
>a RP cost and source required, rather like the focus rules.
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03-19-2003, 08:53 AM #54
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On Tue, 2003-03-18 at 07:47, Gary wrote:
The point is that for a long while Doom`s original conversion that made
bloodline an ability score was all that was out there. It still is. I
didn`t like the idea, but I didn`t come up with something better. At
least, not for public consumption by the BR community--I wrote up enough to
get me through my own gaming sessions, but nothing even remotely complete
enough to legitimately represent a useable alternative system. Nor has
anyone else. No one else has even written up a conversion of the blood
abilities into a 3e format. I haven`t seen such an alternative. Without
such an alternative the complaints about bloodline as an ability score all
rather ring hollow.
Ahem. Simply not true.
I have a perfectly usable alternative system - which I`ve shared. But no
one else seems to like it because it doesn`t have any 3e (or 2e)
features (it`s not sexy enuff). It`s completely add-on.
I do think that a Scion class would be better though. (But, here you are
right - no-one has done one).
But I don`t think that it`s a valid point to score with anyway. Just
because no-one has come up with an alternative does not make a proposal
good. All criticisms are still valid. But any new proposal must stand
the same tests.
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03-19-2003, 05:46 PM #55
At 07:55 PM 3/19/2003 +1100, Peter Lubke wrote:
>>Without such an alternative the complaints about bloodline as an ability
>>score all
>>rather ring hollow.
>
>I have a perfectly usable alternative system - which I`ve shared. But no
>one else seems to like it because it doesn`t have any 3e (or 2e) features
>(it`s not sexy enuff). It`s completely add-on.
Have you a link to your system?
>But I don`t think that it`s a valid point to score with anyway. Just
>because no-one has come up with an alternative does not make a proposal
>good. All criticisms are still valid. But any new proposal must stand the
>same tests.
I don`t like bloodline as an ability score--I said so in the post you
quoted. My point was that because it has been the most fully articulated
system for 3e any other system has to be at least as well articulated in
order to be considered a valid alternative.
Gary
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03-19-2003, 06:55 PM #56
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I initially liked the idea of having bloodline as an ability score, but on converting the bloodlines and abilities for the PCs that I had created previously, they had far fewer blood abilities. None in fact.
I would prefer the idea of keeping it simple and using the original bloodline scores, multipliers for the blood abilities that grant you a bonus based on your bloodline score could be remapped.
The bloodline would be generated separately from your base ability scores. I definitely don't like the idea of spending ability points on your bloodline. For starting PCs, if they wanted to be blooded then they would have to spend a feat to get the divine bloodline. Does this balance them with a commoner as opposed to spending the ability points?
If not, then apply an ECL to major and great bloodline characters. I don't particularly like applying ECL to PCs, but it's better than telling them they can't be as strong, agile or smart as someone who doesn't have a bloodline.
J.
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