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  1. #1
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    I`m gonna try to make the case for having Bloodline as an attribute with no
    ECL modifier at all.

    Among the various things that should give ECLs are superior attributes. I
    saw someone do a very thorough calculation that made the point that a
    characters ECL should increase by 1 for every eight additional attribute
    points (i`m not sure of the exact figure). Thy are on the wizard`s boards
    somewhen.

    Figuring this, if we introduce a sevent attribute score, that is optional
    and has some blood abilities tied to it, the whole thing becomes
    self-balancing. Scions put attribute points into this seventh attribute, and
    thus have a lower score in the other attributes, which gives them a lower
    effective ECL - which is compensated for by the abilities gained from their
    bloodline.

    Having a bloodline score of 8 is free - but it gives you a negative
    bloodline attribute score modifier, and that might in some cases actually be
    worse than not having an attribute at all - in the same way that weak
    psionics can be worse than no psionics when you come under psionic attack.
    So, if you don`t want a tainted bloodline, it might be wiser to simply say
    that you are unblooded.

    This works even with random die rolling. If you use random attributes and
    want to play an unblooded character, simply put your worst roll on Bloodline
    and then scratch it out and say you are unblooded.

    All scions gain some limited blood abilities depending on their bloodline
    score - similar to lesser and low-powered medium blood abilities under the
    current system. If you want to develop your blood abilities to amazing
    levels (similar to the great abilities of the current system), there are
    classes that let you do so. There should probably be one such class for each
    bloodline, and additional notes for building Awishleign as individual
    prestige classes.

    Bloodtheft, regency overflow and other events can change your bloodline
    attribute. But this works just like changing any other attribute, and can
    never give an ECL modifier.

    Using this sytem, Birthrioght characters should probably be built on more
    character points than those from other worlds - but this is a much smaller
    portability problem than templates with ECL modifiers and abilities that may
    or may not work in other worlds.

    I hope I can explain this well enough. I`ve been watching the ECL/Class
    discussion degenerate into bickering, and this is my proposed solution, and
    very similar to what I`m playing with now - except that there are no
    classes. But balancing bloodlinerating versus other ability points has
    worked excelently IMC for two years now.

    /Carl


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  2. #2
    Senior Member ryancaveney's Avatar
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    On Sun, 16 Mar 2003, Stephen Starfox wrote:

    > Among the various things that should give ECLs are superior attributes. I
    > saw someone do a very thorough calculation that made the point that a
    > characters ECL should increase by 1 for every eight additional attribute

    Our own Gary Foss posted something along these very lines right here not
    long ago.

    > Scions put attribute points into this seventh attribute, and
    > thus have a lower score in the other attributes,

    It`s one way to go I suppose, but I don`t want this to be the only way to
    balance, because I don`t want scions generally to always have lower
    ability scores than the other players. If you`re going to do everything
    by effective character level, why not let people say, "rather than
    generate a 4th-level character, I`d like to make a 1st-level character
    with both a bloodline and better than normal ability scores"?


    Ryan Caveney

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  3. #3
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    > Scions put attribute points into this seventh attribute, and
    > thus have a lower score in the other attributes,

    It`s one way to go I suppose, but I don`t want this to be the only way to
    balance, because I don`t want scions generally to always have lower
    ability scores than the other players. If you`re going to do everything
    by effective character level, why not let people say, "rather than
    generate a 4th-level character, I`d like to make a 1st-level character
    with both a bloodline and better than normal ability scores"?

    If you remember the old 2nd ed. rules set, it suggested that in order to be *noticed* by the Blooded of Cerilia, only those who were the cream of the crop of the unblooded got to any positions of influence or fame because of the need to 'compete' against the Scions. This would be reflected in the ability points ebing spent on the core 6 attributes and not in the 7th attribute of Bloodline. Since in 2nd Ed, there was no such thing as a point-buy system like there is now, there was a 'fudge' made whereby the non-blooded got a 10% bonus to their XP earned. This is clearly not the case now, and it is easiest to make the point-buy system manditory for BR 3E.

    Of course, this is my 2 cents (Canadian) worth, your milage may vary...

    -Mike
    "It may be better to be a live jackal than a dead lion, but it is better still to be a live lion -- and usually easier."

    - R. A. Heinlien, from The Collected works of Lazarus Long

  4. #4
    Senior Member ryancaveney's Avatar
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    I wrote:

    > I don`t want scions generally to always have lower
    > ability scores than the other players.

    On Sun, 16 Mar 2003, Athos69 wrote:

    > in order to be *noticed* by the Blooded of Cerilia, only those who
    > were the cream of the crop of the unblooded got to any positions of
    > influence or fame because of the need to `compete` against the
    > Scions.

    Interesting. You may have a point there. Still, I presently prefer the
    idea of mixing starting XP in with all the other buys, including equipment
    as well. A PBEM I once tried to play in used this system (I never got to
    play the character I made, because the PBEM died before it really
    started), in which from the same point pool you bought *everything*, from
    XP to bloodline to stats to equipment to domain design points. I`d post
    it if I could figure out where I`d hidden it...


    Ryan Caveney

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  5. #5
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Ryan B. Caveney" <ryanb@CYBERCOM.NET>
    Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2003 2:10 PM

    > I presently prefer the idea of mixing starting XP in with all the other
    > buys, including equipment as well. A PBEM I once tried to play in
    > used this system (I never got to play the character I made, because
    > the PBEM died before it really started), in which from the same point
    > pool you bought *everything*, from XP to bloodline to stats to
    > equipment to domain design points.

    True point buy systems work this way. In Twilight 2000, for instance, the
    same pool of build points purchased stats, skills, and weapons. A master
    build system that includes ability scores, blood powers, magic items,
    starting money, and even class design would be ideal.

    I`m not sure what to do with domain design points. It would have to be of a
    sort that you could buy a domain, but no so great that of you didn`t
    purchase a domain or a bloodline that you would end up as a 5th level
    character poised to enter a PrC with superb stats.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  6. #6
    Senior Member ryancaveney's Avatar
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    On Sun, 16 Mar 2003, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

    > A master build system that includes ability scores, blood powers,
    > magic items, starting money, and even class design would be ideal.

    Glad to hear you agree.

    > I`m not sure what to do with domain design points. It would have to
    > be of a sort that you could buy a domain, but no so great that of you
    > didn`t purchase a domain or a bloodline that you would end up as a 5th
    > level character poised to enter a PrC with superb stats.

    Well, the fact that it was a PBEM meant that everyone was going to buy a
    domain of some sort, so the big tradeoff was between bloodline and
    starting domain power; level was only a real concern for spellcasters.
    But yes, domain design points are a thorny issue if not everyone is
    expected to be a regent. I didn`t play Twilight:2000 long enough to
    remember the generation mechanics, but it must face issues like this --
    what would stats look like in a party where everyone only bought pistols
    except for one guy who picked a tank and a semi full of gasoline?


    Ryan Caveney

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  7. #7
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    On Mon, 2003-03-17 at 13:07, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Ryan B. Caveney" <ryanb@CYBERCOM.NET>
    Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2003 2:10 PM

    > I presently prefer the idea of mixing starting XP in with all the other
    > buys, including equipment as well. A PBEM I once tried to play in
    > used this system (I never got to play the character I made, because
    > the PBEM died before it really started), in which from the same point
    > pool you bought *everything*, from XP to bloodline to stats to
    > equipment to domain design points.

    True point buy systems work this way. In Twilight 2000, for instance, the
    same pool of build points purchased stats, skills, and weapons. A master
    build system that includes ability scores, blood powers, magic items,
    starting money, and even class design would be ideal.

    I`m not sure what to do with domain design points. It would have to be of a
    sort that you could buy a domain, but no so great that of you didn`t
    purchase a domain or a bloodline that you would end up as a 5th level
    character poised to enter a PrC with superb stats.

    I would expect that to create a balanced player party where there would
    be both regent characters and non-regent characters to have characters
    whose respective levels were as much as 4 and 5 apart. While a character
    with a small domain of say just one guild(1) would only be one level
    less than a non-regent character.

    This would mean that starting regent characters would be 1st level and
    non-regent starting characters would be as high as 5th or 6th. I don`t
    find this unusual or unbalanced.

    However, is it what you want? While balanced, it can effectively rule
    out the regent from adventuring on an equal footing with the other
    players. Using a point-buy system, the number of points allocated can be
    allocated to the group - rather than to individual players - and let
    them decide how to invest their points, which need not be spent evenly
    over characters.

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  8. #8
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Peter Lubke" <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU>
    Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2003 10:59 PM


    > This would mean that starting regent characters would be 1st level and
    > non-regent starting characters would be as high as 5th or 6th. I don`t
    > find this unusual or unbalanced.
    >
    > However, is it what you want? While balanced, it can effectively rule
    > out the regent from adventuring on an equal footing with the other
    > players.

    Speaking for myself, I have no commitment to having all the characters be
    within, say, a single level of the others. If one character is effectivly
    5th level and hangs out with a bunch of 1st level characters, before too
    long he`ll find himself hanging out with characters only a level or two
    below his own. This is especially true if he occasionally takes time out to
    perform realm actions. IMC, characters encounter NPC`s and opponants of all
    levels.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  9. #9
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    Peter Lubke wrote:

    >On Mon, 2003-03-17 at 13:07, Kenneth Gauck wrote:
    >
    > ----- Original Message -----
    > From: "Ryan B. Caveney" <ryanb@CYBERCOM.NET>
    > Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2003 2:10 PM
    >
    > > I presently prefer the idea of mixing starting XP in with all the other
    > > buys, including equipment as well. A PBEM I once tried to play in
    > > used this system (I never got to play the character I made, because
    > > the PBEM died before it really started), in which from the same point
    > > pool you bought *everything*, from XP to bloodline to stats to
    > > equipment to domain design points.
    >
    > True point buy systems work this way. In Twilight 2000, for instance, the
    > same pool of build points purchased stats, skills, and weapons. A master
    > build system that includes ability scores, blood powers, magic items,
    > starting money, and even class design would be ideal.
    >
    > I`m not sure what to do with domain design points. It would have to be of a
    > sort that you could buy a domain, but no so great that of you didn`t
    > purchase a domain or a bloodline that you would end up as a 5th level
    > character poised to enter a PrC with superb stats.
    >
    >I would expect that to create a balanced player party where there would
    >be both regent characters and non-regent characters to have characters
    >whose respective levels were as much as 4 and 5 apart. While a character
    >with a small domain of say just one guild(1) would only be one level
    >less than a non-regent character.
    >
    >This would mean that starting regent characters would be 1st level and
    >non-regent starting characters would be as high as 5th or 6th. I don`t
    >find this unusual or unbalanced.
    >
    >However, is it what you want? While balanced, it can effectively rule
    >out the regent from adventuring on an equal footing with the other
    >players. Using a point-buy system, the number of points allocated can be
    >allocated to the group - rather than to individual players - and let
    >them decide how to invest their points, which need not be spent evenly
    >over characters.
    >
    And worse: What if the character who created the non-regent and got more
    stuff or levels, suddenly somehow gets a holding himself (e.g. Rogr
    Aglondier) - then the whole balance issue is broken.

    As in the game theoretically everyone can somehow get on the domain
    level of play, the balance issue should only be valid to balance
    character vs. character and realm vs. realm.
    bye
    Michael Romes

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