Bloodline

[Shade]

>In my opinion Birthright is a game of kings not peasants.
>
>To penalize Kings so that the peasants can compete is bringing balance
>where none is needed or even wanted to preserve the feeling of being a
>ruler by divine right and with the approbiate blood ability nearly a
>second Herakles, Achilles or other demi-god.
>bye
>Michael Romes

Well said! The 10% xp bonus was nice in 2e, but did not even come close to
the benefit of a major bloodline. You could barely feel the effect of it at
low levels. Basically, the 10% xp bonus was the difference between a level
19 fighter and a level 20 fighter.

By contrast, a +2 ECL for a major bloodline is the total sux compared to
the 2e rules.

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[Shade]

At 02:57 PM 3/14/2003 +0100, you wrote:
>> To mention the nonsense about balance:
>>
>> The most problems come from the try to balance the different
>> bloodstrenghts even with nonblooded characters.
>>
>> In 3E draft blooded scions are penalized in XP by gaining an ECL or
>> more - in 2E it was the opposite, non-blooded characters got a bonus of
>> 10% XP.
>>
>> In 3E the penalty raises with the bloodline strength, 2E did not care
>> how strong your bloodline was.
>>
>> So while the 10% XP bonus for non-blooded characters was nice, it did
>> not even try to balance every character against every other. And when
>> the 10% bonus would have been balanced for a non-blooded vs. a minor
>> scion it would have been unbalancing for a non-blooded vs. a great scion
>> - but 2E did not care.
>>
>> In my opinion Birthright is a game of kings not peasants.
>>
>> To penalize Kings so that the peasants can compete is bringing balance
>> where none is needed or even wanted to preserve the feeling of being a
>> ruler by divine right and with the approbiate blood ability nearly a
>> second Herakles, Achilles or other demi-god.
>> bye
>> Michael Romes
>>
>>
>And giving a regent character a few more effective levels is out of the
question?
>
>If you want regents that are more powerful than a Commoner 1, then let
them start out with more levels, including a ECL shifting thingy from a
bloodline :-)

OR just let them have the bloodlines for free and still start at 1st level,
as it was done in 2nd edition.

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[Shade]

At 10:53 AM 3/14/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>At 02:23 PM 3/14/2003 +0100, Michael Romes wrote:
>
>>To penalize Kings so that the peasants can compete is bringing balance
>>where none is needed or even wanted to preserve the feeling of being a
>>ruler by divine right and with the approbiate blood ability nearly a
>>second Herakles, Achilles or other demi-god.
>
>I don`t think balancing kings against peasants is really go the goal; it`s
>balancing ruler PCs against commoner PCs of "equal level" which includes
>such things as templates and any other ECL modifiers.

Were commoner PCs balanced against regent PCs in 2nd edition? You`ve got to
be joking. A magic item (in a rare magic setting like BR) and a bloodline
vs. 10% experience? Not even close!

The game was obviously designed to favor regent and scion PCs. Hell, the
entire reason my brother bought the BR boxed set was because he heard about
the bloodlines and abilities somewhere. He didn`t give a damn about the
political aspect (which is what I liked when I read through the books, and
why I remain a fervent BR supporter).

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[Shade]

>That`s because 2nd Edition wasn`t a very good system. The 10% bonus
didn`t even balance between character classes, because of the different
experience charts for each class. 3rd Edition is all about balance, in
which a 5th-level fighter and a 5th-level cleric are on equal power levels.

Again, this is a fallacy. There is a lot of stuff in 3e that is totally
broken. Divine Power is one (hmm, I`m a cleric, you`re a fighter.. but I
can fight better than you, fire arrows better than you, and cast heal, holy
word, miracle, summon monster IX, and reached Harm on top of that)

A cursory examination of the 3e minmax boards will reveal a lot more.

>A 10th-level scion and a 10th-level commoner should be of the same power
level,

I respectfully disagree.

>

In my opinion Birthright is a game of kings not peasants.

>
>It is. However, players that want to play a scion should not just gain
extra benefits, while players who do not want to be a scion gain nothing.
As stated, scions are fairly rare, so most games should have a commoner or
two in the mix,

Most games *should* have a commoner or two in the mix? Again I respectfully
disagree. The PCs are heroes, and don`t necessarily fall into the same
demographic rules as the NPC population, IMHO.

I have never met a player who didn`t want to be a scion. For a lot of
players, that`s the whole point of playing BR :)

>Balance is needed. Without balance, the system falls apart when stress is
applied. Look at 2nd Edition... the system was so unbalanced that most DMs
were forced to create house rules in order for it to work.

I agree that balance is needed. But charging +4 character levels for even a
true bloodline is ridiculous.

But I don`t think we can make any progress on the issue until we reach an
agreement on the following issue: should a commoner be as strong as a scion
of equal level? I give a resounding NO. In My Humble Opinion a 10th level
scion should be stronger than a 10th level commoner. Having the blood of
the gods flowing through him should make him stronger.


>Also, by pushing scions above their power level without any sort of
balance leaves terrible holes in the Challenge Rating and XP system. So, if
I`m a 6th-level scion of a major bloodline, according to the rules I`m an
ECL of 8. So, if we square off against CR 8 creatures, I am fighting
against my challenge rating. However, if we remove the balance imposed,
because you don`t think it`s needed, things get bad. Then, I`m still
considered an ECL of 6, though I am as strong as an 8th-level character,
and creatures of CR 6 will not be that much of a problem. However, since I
gain experience as a 6th-level character, I gain a lot more. So, I gain
free special abilities *AND* extra experience by removing balance.

In my campaign this factor will be balanced out by the fact that an 8th
level scion will have far fewer magic items than the D&D rules assume. IMO
this is mitigated to some extent by the presence of blood abilities.

I`m not saying that everyone should take my approach, but I find it an
effective enough rebuttal to the point about CRs and XP.

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[Shade]

At 12:12 AM 3/15/2003 +0100, you wrote:
>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1429
>
> Mourn wrote:
>

Originally posted by AnakinMiller
>I disgree here, but that is simply my opinion. Birthright is the game of
Lords and Rulers not the rable.

>
>Not all lords and rulers are scions, though, and not all scions are lords
and rulers.
>
>

I understand that 3e is supposed to be all balance happy, but
damnit a 10th level scion should be more powerful than a 10th level
peasant.

>
>If a 10th-level scion is more powerful than a 10th-level peasant, then the
scion is not 10th level. Which is where the ECL adjustment discussion comes
in. If a 10th-level scion is as powerful as an 11th-level peasant, then the
10th-level scion should have an ECL adjustment of +1.

Okay, so by that stick, I take it that you consider a 10th level commoner
to be about as strong as a 10th level fighter? How about a 20th level
commoner versus a Ftr4/Wiz1/Rog3/Bladesinger10/Bladedancer2? How does a
20th level warrior stack up to a Wizard5/Incantatrix10/Archmage5? They do
have the same amount of experience points, after all.

>Again, an argument to break the system, and ruin its sense of logic and
consistency for no better reason than "just because."
>
>

If the odds where not stacked in favor of the scions then why in
hell do they rule by divine right? Kings are the leaders because they are
above the common man.

>
>Again, not all kings are scions, and not all scions are kings. They rule
by divine right because the blood in their veins gives them greater ability
to do so. However, just because this blood gears them towards leadership
over others does not mean that balance can just be ignored.
>
>If you don`t like balance, just go back and play 2nd Edition. 3rd Edition
is written to make sense, and two characters of the same character level
being of the same equivalent power level makes sense.

My point is that even in 3rd edition, this doesn`t hold true. Clerics are
stronger than just about any other class if built properly. It`s sick,
really. At least 2e didn`t have this problem.

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[Shade]

At 07:43 PM 3/14/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>First of all, to those of you who remember me from before I fell off the
>face of the earth, I`d just like to say `hi` and `it`s nice to be back.`

Welcome back Mark, I remember you from the PBeM days 4 or 5 years ago :)

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[Shade]

>NPC classes are balanced in the Challenge Rating system. A 1st-level of
any of the NPC classes is a CR 1/2 not a CR 1. A 2nd-level is only a CR 1.
>
>Also, prestige classes that "boost" power usually have ridiculous
requirements and some even have drawbacks to gain these powers.

Mourn, again I have to say I respectfully disagree with you. :)

Depends on your definition of "ridiculous."

Do you think Holy Liberator, Singh Rager, Bladedancer, Bladesinger,
Iaijutsu Master, Incantatrix, Mage of the Arcane Order, Archmage, Sacred
Exorcist, Hospitaler, Geomancer, Elemental Savant, Shadow Adept, Master of
Shrouds, anything from BOVD, Divine Champion, Divine Disciple, Virtuoso or
Templar have ridiculous requirements?

These classes are *ALL* far stronger than the base classes they were
"meant" for. I promise you that a Paladin5/Hospitaler10/Divine Champion5
will manhandle a Paladin20. Same goes for a Sam10/Iai10 vs a Sam20, or a
Clr10/Sac Ex10 vs a Clr20, or a Wiz5/Inc10/Acm5 vs a Wiz20. How about a
Sorc6/MotAO10/Acm4 vs a Sorc20? That last one is SO unbalanced. Not even
close.

And these are all fairly simple builds. Far stronger characters can be made
(well, not much stronger than Wiz5/Inc10/Acm5. That is about the pinnacle
of 3e power builds.)

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[Shade]

>In the d20 System, the term level is `a measure of advancement or power
applied to several areas of the game. See caster level, character level,
class level, and spell level.` I hate to sound like a stickler, but the
terminology should be used correctly, and any new terms should take the old
terms into account. When I think of the term "Domain Level" I think "A
measure of a domain`s power."
>
>After all, conflicting and confusing terminology was a big problem with
2nd Edition. When the same book would refer to existing rules and terms in
a multitude of manners, consistency is lost and a lot of people can become
easily confused.

Mourn,

I do agree with you here. :)

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[Birthright-L]

From: "Lord Shade" <lordshade@SOFTHOME.NET>

> In my campaign this factor will be balanced out by the fact that an 8th
> level scion will have far fewer magic items than the D&D rules assume. IMO
> this is mitigated to some extent by the presence of blood abilities.
>

You have a pointhere. Magical equipment is a very important part of the ECL
calculation. Reducing the magic item budget by 50%, or even just limiting
the available selection of magic items, so that characters have a few
expensive ones without filling out all their available slots with low-power
"+1" items like amulets of natural armor and rings of protection, reduces
the ECL of a character significantly.

Say a character of level 5 has the item budget of a second level character -
I`d argue that the ECL of such a characer is 4 or maybe even less. Something
like ECL = Character level *2/3 + "Budget level" * 1/3

But by this token, blood abilities should be largely level-based, since
magic item budget normally is. They could work somewhat the Ancestral Blades
of OA (Yes, I know this has been suggested before). That way, the relative
power of Birthright ECLs and other settings can be kept without introducing
undue amounts of magical items. The question is, how does this fit with the
idea of differing bloodline strengths and such?

My experience from my own game is that many blood abilities become largely
irrelevant at higher levels. We are now at level 15, and the most valuable
blood abilities are those that enhance stats and saving throws - abilities
like "elemental command" have become largely obsolete. If there is anything
I`d change in my own bloodline system, it is that I would have those that
grant unique abilities - like the aforementioned Elemental Control - would
scale a lot more over levels.

/Carl


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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mourn" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
Sent: Friday, March 14, 2003 5:12 PM


> Again, an argument to break the system, and ruin its sense of logic
> and consistency for no better reason than "just because."

Funny that you missed the fact that Atarikid actually had a reason to
justify his argument. "Just because" prefigures no reason, just an
unreflective prejudice. In fact he argued that the logic of setting demands
that those who have an exclusive power have some mechanical sense of that
justification. Aristocracy means "rule by the best". In what way are the
rulers the best? In BR, its their bloodline, their ability to use regency,
and their blood powers.

You are right to note that ECL is the way to measure the advantage of the
best, but there are other things to consider besides effective character
level. One of them is the idea that a PC scion is a typical scion. A PC
commoner is a very atypical commoner. Most commoners have a fair share of
the commoner or warrior class. Just having access to all PC-classes, and
never getting stuck with levels of commoner make the PC of low birth
unusual. A 10th level fighter is not the same as a 10th level warrior. An
Aristcrat 6/Fighter 4 with a minor bloodline and the Detect Lie blood
ability is better than both of them. He might well be assigned a +1 ECL,
but that`s only to balance his aquisition of xp for combating standardized
monsters (with standard CR`s), not because he actually should be as low and
pitiful as a 10th level warrior, commoner, or multi-classed John-beer-swill.

Setting should trump mechanics. In BR, one example of that is the arbitrary
limitation of access to the wizard class.

> However, just because this blood gears them towards leadership
> over others does not mean that balance can just be ignored.

Balance against monsters (for using CR to calculate the threat-experience
reward) sure, balance against the rabble, I think not.

> If you don`t like balance, just go back and play 2nd Edition. 3rd
> Edition is written to make sense, and two characters of the same
> character level being of the same equivalent power level makes sense.

Someone forgot the utility of NPC classes.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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